Two in one day

[renegadewolf]

I know the reports are wordy, but i was asked by the convener of the tournament to be detailed about the incidences

 

Game: 12PM VPark

Teams: C vs W

Inning of incident: Bottom of 6th inning.

Runner on 2nd, 2 out

Person ejected: Coach #2 C

There was a play at first base, F3 was in the act of fielding a throw to him from F6 he had the back half of his foot on the bag.  The ball reached the fielder before the batter runner reached the base however immediately the batter runner reached the bag and in my judgement made incidental contact with the fielder(stepping on his heel and both players going down) and the fielder dropped the ball before he had secured it so I declared the runner safe .  During this time the runner from second had rounded third and was heading towards home and subsequently crossed home. As there was continuing action I did not call time and allowed the run to score. The coach was disagreeing with the call at first as well as allowing the run to score he started yelling that "I made the wrong call, this was a player safety issue so i can't let the run score and that i made a terrible call".  I tried to being to explain why I had ruled the way I had but he just interrupted me yelling "you're terrible" at which point I ejected the coach.  Coach initially did not leave the are, so I called time and informed the coach he needed to leave but he did not leave.  I next told the coach that he needed to leave immediately, again he did not leave.  I then told the coach that we were not going to commence playing until he left the area.  Coach then left the area immediately.

 

Game: 4PM V Park

Teams : G Vs A

Inning of incident: Bottom of 3

Person ejected: Coach #2 A

Coach had been argumentative about strikes in previous innings, but nothing was said to the coach in the first 2 innings by either my partner nor myself. In the bottom of the 3rd a batter for the A struck  out, and was being demonstrative about his being upset for striking out. The player waved his arms out made and exasperated face and audibly expressed his disappointment. I told the batter to knock it off at which point the coach interjected and told me not to speak to his kid.  I told coach the player was being demonstrative and that wasn't acceptable. Coach retorted with he was coming to me not you and i should mind my business and then started to go on about how awful the zone was.  I ejected the coach.  Upon realizing he had been ejected the coach started to come onto the field.  I told him 3 times not to come onto the field, he was done, but he decided to come out anyways.  The coach was asking if he didn't get a warning, i said no and then began to ignored him as he was going on about my proficiency as an umpire.  I then asked the A  head coach to get the ejected coach off the field, however the ejected  coach left without incident and immediately left the area

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[Mudisfun]

Wow. Heck of a weekend. In my opinion unless F3 was spurting blood there was no reason to kill the play. 30 seconds is not going to change anything for his care. Bet if the roles were reversed and you called time this coach would be ejected as well. 2nd coach should have corralled his player versus whining and then opening the ej prize. However you said it in the beginning that you allowed them to complain about balls and strikes without shutting it down right away so you and your partner allowed them to feel they had leash to burn. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[maven]

OK, so what's your takeaway from these?

For #1, you can be "detailed" and still produce a MUCH shorter report. And rather than use fielder designations as we do here, in reports you want to use player numbers whenever possible. "Blue 21 stepped on white 4's foot at 1B, causing an injury and a dropped ball. I ruled the runner safe, left the ball live, and allowed blue 15 to score from 2B. The Coach Smith requested an explanation and, not satisfied, yelled "you're terrible!" several times, at which point I ejected him for his personal attacks."

Could you have handled the situation differently and perhaps avoided the EJ?

First, what about the call on the BR? If F3 held that ball in his glove for even a moment, the BR was out. We don't need "voluntary release" here, since that concept is not part of the definition of TAG. With 2 outs, that solves all your other problems right there.

Next issue: I don't see where you mention the level, but for anything above 12U I sincerely doubt that this was an accident, and I might have at least INT and perhaps MC on the BR. Of course, if F3 has his foot all the way across the base or the throw moves him, then that's on him; but given the situation, this play doesn't pass the smell test.

If you're not ruling INT or MC, then you need a big "THAT'S NOTHING!" and safe signal so that all participants continue to play. R2 might still score, but you've communicated your call and given the defense every opportunity to play on him.

So then you get into an argument: he starts to say that he disagrees with the call, and you keep arguing. Why? Do you suppose you're going to convince him you're right? You're aware that that never happens, right? Just let it go: he's allowed to think and say that you made a terrible call. Just say, "OK, you might be right coach, but that's what we're going with. Now let's play ball." He gets his say, then you make your one and only explanation, then play ball. When you "try to explain" some more, you simply fan the flames, to the point where he will cross the line (as happened here). So don't. He thinks you're wrong, so respect that, and move on. In my experience, umpires who eject a lot of coaches do so because they can't let an argument go. Listen, explain (once), play.

EJ #2:

Seems pretty righteous. I always chuckle at "don't talk to my player." You have a couple options with that one (I'm sure others will offer additional options). One is: don't argue with the dugout. If a coach wants to speak to you, he can request time and come out. Otherwise, we don't shout across the diamond.

Another idea, if you decide to engage with him: "Coach, I'm trying to keep him in the game, but if you prefer that I just go ahead an eject him, let me know." Your strategy was to explain what the kid did wrong, but that puts you into an adversarial position with the coach: instead, make him an ally. You both want the same thing here: to keep the kid in the game. "Mind your own business" should be met with "managing the game IS my business, now THAT'S ENOUGH." In leagues where coaches don't know what "that's enough" means, you can add, "this is your only warning." When he persists, toss (which is approximately what happened here, it seems).

Sorry for the long post. TL;DR!

[blue23ll]

First, keep the report simple. The 5 W's, who, what, why, when and where.  I put the reason for the EJ in the subject line. Re: Ejection of Assistant Coach Joe Schmuck for arguing balls and strikes...

The coaches in both situations literally ejected themselves. Don't say anything more than once, three times is 2 times too many. Where is your partner, he should be coming in and corralling these yahoo's and escorting them off the field. 

[smoyer]

Maven,excellent advice.+1

[kstrunk]

OK, so what's your takeaway from these?

For #1, you can be "detailed" and still produce a MUCH shorter report. And rather than use fielder designations as we do here, in reports you want to use player numbers whenever possible. "Blue 21 stepped on white 4's foot at 1B, causing an injury and a dropped ball. I ruled the runner safe, left the ball live, and allowed blue 15 to score from 2B. The Coach Smith requested an explanation and, not satisfied, yelled "you're terrible!" several times, at which point I ejected him for his personal attacks."

Could you have handled the situation differently and perhaps avoided the EJ?

First, what about the call on the BR? If F3 held that ball in his glove for even a moment, the BR was out. We don't need "voluntary release" here, since that concept is not part of the definition of TAG. With 2 outs, that solves all your other problems right there.

Next issue: I don't see where you mention the level, but for anything above 12U I sincerely doubt that this was an accident, and I might have at least INT and perhaps MC on the BR. Of course, if F3 has his foot all the way across the base or the throw moves him, then that's on him; but given the situation, this play doesn't pass the smell test.

If you're not ruling INT or MC, then you need a big "THAT'S NOTHING!" and safe signal so that all participants continue to play. R2 might still score, but you've communicated your call and given the defense every opportunity to play on him.

So then you get into an argument: he starts to say that he disagrees with the call, and you keep arguing. Why? Do you suppose you're going to convince him you're right? You're aware that that never happens, right? Just let it go: he's allowed to think and say that you made a terrible call. Just say, "OK, you might be right coach, but that's what we're going with. Now let's play ball." He gets his say, then you make your one and only explanation, then play ball. When you "try to explain" some more, you simply fan the flames, to the point where he will cross the line (as happened here). So don't. He thinks you're wrong, so respect that, and move on. In my experience, umpires who eject a lot of coaches do so because they can't let an argument go. Listen, explain (once), play.

EJ #2:

Seems pretty righteous. I always chuckle at "don't talk to my player." You have a couple options with that one (I'm sure others will offer additional options). One is: don't argue with the dugout. If a coach wants to speak to you, he can request time and come out. Otherwise, we don't shout across the diamond.

Another idea, if you decide to engage with him: "Coach, I'm trying to keep him in the game, but if you prefer that I just go ahead an eject him, let me know." Your strategy was to explain what the kid did wrong, but that puts you into an adversarial position with the coach: instead, make him an ally. You both want the same thing here: to keep the kid in the game. "Mind your own business" should be met with "managing the game IS my business, now THAT'S ENOUGH." In leagues where coaches don't know what "that's enough" means, you can add, "this is your only warning." When he persists, toss (which is approximately what happened here, it seems).

Sorry for the long post. TL;DR!

​Good stuff, and so grateful. With a background in fire/rescue and EMS, particularly leadership and commanding, I consider myself a 'quick and decisive' thinker, but as I read this good stuff, I'm praying I can recall it all quick enough to use it on the diamond, should need arise. Though I've had very few incidents thus far (2nd year, approx. 70 games, 1 EJ), unfortunately, I notice my emotions trying to get in the game when I do hear chirps from coaches. I've been able to coral those emotions and stay quiet thus far, but I must admit that thinking THESE things through hasn't yet become a part of my repertoire. 

[renegadewolf]

I always like to get advice from my fellow umpires, that's why I post stuff here, so when I make a mistake or do something silly, I can get called out on it, learn from it and become a better umpire for it.  As it happens, the game was a 10/U tournament, which was a heavy influence in the judgement that it was incidental contact.  I like the advice of calling "THAT'S NOTHING" in this situation while it may not have stopped the coach from arguing, he would have had a clear understanding of my thoughts on the matter before he went off.  Again, for clarification on the catch at first , I had the ball bouncing straight out of the glove as it hit the glove.  I also like the idea of presenting that you are only trying to keep his kid in the game, will attempt to work that in if (when) that sort of a situation arises again.

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[Replacematt]

One thing I do in my reports is I start with a one-sentence summary: "In the bottom of the third inning, plate umpire Ed Gein ejected Cannibals manager Jeffrey Dahmer for arguing balls and strikes." Then I start a new paragraph and I write the narrative. That way, whoever needs to read it knows the bottom line and doesn't have to parse the reason.