Ejection=Out, when?

[umpire_scott]

I know in cases of malicious contact the runner is also called out on the play.  What about other instances of unsportsmanlike conduct? I guess code would be modfied OBR as it occurred to an American Legion game.

[Rich Ives]

I know in cases of malicious contact the runner is also called out on the play.  What about other instances of unsportsmanlike conduct? I guess code would be modfied OBR as it occurred to an American Legion game.

 

There are no others.

[umpire_scott]

 

I know in cases of malicious contact the runner is also called out on the play.  What about other instances of unsportsmanlike conduct? I guess code would be modfied OBR as it occurred to an American Legion game.

 

There are no others.

 

 

So what if it was an attempt at something that could be deemed malicious contact?  I had a kid take a swing at another after a tag attempt that he did not like.  I ejected the kid and called him out, then thought afterwards that the out may have been wrong.

[maven]

I know in cases of malicious contact the runner is also called out on the play. 

 

You can't know that, because it's false. If you can't think of an example, I'll post one.

 

I understand that you're asking another question, but for the sake of newer umpires I thought it was worth correcting this comment.

[noumpere]

It's especially not true in "modified OBR", depending on the modifications.

[umpire_scott]

 

I know in cases of malicious contact the runner is also called out on the play. 

 

You can't know that, because it's false. If you can't think of an example, I'll post one.

 

I understand that you're asking another question, but for the sake of newer umpires I thought it was worth correcting this comment.

 

 

So you are saying that if malicious contact occurs the runner is ejected, but if he was safe the run still counts?  Or are you simply saying that there are exceptions?

 

Here is what the American Legion Rule Book says:

 

Any player who, in the judgment of the umpire, maliciously contacts another player is 

automatically ejected and, if the offender is a runner, is declared out. 

[refump10]

IIRC, there's a case in the FED ruleset that has R1 touching the plate and then trucking F2 who was standing on the other side of the plate.  I don't have my books with me, but I believe the run scores and R1 is EJ.  Don't know about NCAA or OBR modified

[noumpere]

IIRC, there's a case in the FED ruleset that has R1 touching the plate and then trucking F2 who was standing on the other side of the plate.  I don't have my books with me, but I believe the run scores and R1 is EJ.  Don't know about NCAA or OBR modified

Yes, that case exists.  The theory is that once a runner scores, he's no longer a runner (he's a "retired runner" in FED parlance).

 

The exception, of course, is if this is a FPSR -- then he's out and no run scores (true whether it's FPSR w/ MC or w/o MC).

 

I withdraw my comment above regarding maybe not applying -- given Scott's quote on Legion rules.

[maven]

 

 

I know in cases of malicious contact the runner is also called out on the play. 

 

You can't know that, because it's false. If you can't think of an example, I'll post one.

 

I understand that you're asking another question, but for the sake of newer umpires I thought it was worth correcting this comment.

 

 

So you are saying that if malicious contact occurs the runner is ejected, but if he was safe the run still counts?  Or are you simply saying that there are exceptions?

 

Here is what the American Legion Rule Book says:

 

Any player who, in the judgment of the umpire, maliciously contacts another player is 

automatically ejected and, if the offender is a runner, is declared out. 

 

 

So consider this play:

 

SITUATION: R1, stealing on the pitch. F6 covers the base, straddling it. The throw is high and late: R1 slides in safely under the tag. R1 requests time, and the BU grants it. F6 mutters something, and R1 gets up and shoves F6 to the ground maliciously.

 

RULING: R1 is ejected for MC, and a substitute will take his place on the bases (R1 not out).

 

Now, I don't do Legion, so I don't know whether they envision the possibility of recording an out while the ball is dead. The context of the quoted rule is the OBS provisions, and the rest of the passage discusses contact at HP during play and how to slide or avoid contact with F2.

 

Calling a runner out when the ball is dead strikes me as odd, it's not that way in any other rule set, and without specific and explicit direction from Legion I don't think I'd have an out there.

[Mad Mike]

The BRD Section 347 Interference By: Runner: Malicious Contact/Collision: Definition/Penalty: reads the following:

 

FED: A runner may not maliciously crash into a fielder, whether the fielder is in or out of the base path, or with or without the ball. The ball is immediately dead. (3-3-1n). PENALTY: The runner is out and ejected. (3-3-1n Pen; 3-3-1y,z, aa, bb, cc, dd, and ee.) 

 

Also, if a runner crosses the plate before another runner causes malicious contact, the run counts. Other runners remain TOI.

 

OFFICIAL INTERPRETATION: Rumble: Umpires shoud not use the force of the crash as the criterion for judging malicious contact: "The severity of the contact is not a gauge for determining malicious contact, because there are times.....when the contact is unavoidable."

 

NCAA: The rules committee is "concerned" about the safety of players involved in "unnecessary and violent collisions with the catcher at home plate" and with "infielders at all bases." "The intent of the rule is to encourage runners and defensive players to avoid such collisions whenever possible." (8-7)

 

Also, if illegal contact occurs before the runner touches the plate: PENALTY 1: The ball is dead, the offender is out, regardless of the result of the play. (8-7-1 PEN)

 

Also, If the contact is flagrant or malicious, in addition to PENALTY 1, the runner is ejected. Other runners return TOI. (8-7-2 PEN)

 

Also, if the "flagrant or malicious" crash occurs after the runner has scored: PENALTY 3: The run counts, the runner is ejected, the ball is dead, and other runners return to the bases occupied at the time of the contact. (8-7-3 PEN)

 

If this crash occurs at any other base than home, [with fewer than 2 outs]: PENALTY 4: The offending team may replace the runner. 

 

The runner may not make "flagrant" contact at any base while he is attempting illegally to prevent a double play. PENALTY 5: With fewer than 2 outs, both the batter-runner and the offender are out. The ball is dead, and the offender is ejected. (8-4c Pen 3)

 

If the runner's path is blocked, he: 1) must make an actual attempt to reach the base; and 2) may not attempt to dislodge the ball; and 3) must attempt to avoid a collision if he can reach the base without collision: If all three criteria are fullfilled: It is considered unavoidable contact: There is no offensive penalty. There might be obstruction. (8-7-4) Contact above the waist shall be proof of an attempt to dislodge the ball. (8-7-2)

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

OFFICIAL INTERPRETATION 356-347: NCAA Coordinators Conference Call: Here is the formula for judging collisions at the plate:

 

1) F2 stationary, in the immediate act of fielding a throw + collision = no obstruction but the runner is held accountable for a flagrant slide or malicious contact.

 

2) F2 moving a step or two up the line, in the immediate act of fielding the throw + collision = no obstruction but the runner is held accountable for a flagrant slide or malicious contact.

 

3) F2 chasing errant throw = collision = obstruction.

 

The BRD also gives a good summary for a malicious crash---Note: In every instance, the runner is ejected:

 

Offense                                    FED                                  NCAA

Crash before scoring                out                                     out

Crash when obstructed            out                                     awarded the base

Crash after scoring: force         out                                     run counts

Crash after scoring: no force    run counts                         run counts

 

OBR: No provision.

 

Carl Childress references page 10, Paragraph 8 of the BRD, and announces, "The OBR are based on rules codified and first published in 1845.....They evolved into the professional statutes of today. Amateur leagues using that code often enact their own safety rules or adopt certain playing provisions to suit their players' ages and physical development." Carl notes where these significant departures exist, one should check with their local league before enforcing, or not enforcing the straight OBR rule outlined in that clause. So, as Umpire Scott notes, his legion league has obviously added a safety rule to an OBR rule set where a rule does not normally exist.

[goody14]

 

 

 

I know in cases of malicious contact the runner is also called out on the play. 

 

You can't know that, because it's false. If you can't think of an example, I'll post one.

 

I understand that you're asking another question, but for the sake of newer umpires I thought it was worth correcting this comment.

 

 

So you are saying that if malicious contact occurs the runner is ejected, but if he was safe the run still counts?  Or are you simply saying that there are exceptions?

 

Here is what the American Legion Rule Book says:

 

Any player who, in the judgment of the umpire, maliciously contacts another player is 

automatically ejected and, if the offender is a runner, is declared out. 

 

 

So consider this play:

 

SITUATION: R1, stealing on the pitch. F6 covers the base, straddling it. The throw is high and late: R1 slides in safely under the tag. R1 requests time, and the BU grants it. F6 mutters something, and R1 gets up and shoves F6 to the ground maliciously.

 

RULING: R1 is ejected for MC, and a substitute will take his place on the bases (R1 not out).

 

Now, I don't do Legion, so I don't know whether they envision the possibility of recording an out while the ball is dead. The context of the quoted rule is the OBS provisions, and the rest of the passage discusses contact at HP during play and how to slide or avoid contact with F2.

 

Calling a runner out when the ball is dead strikes me as odd, it's not that way in any other rule set, and without specific and explicit direction from Legion I don't think I'd have an out there.

 

 

I agree with your ruling just not the language used.  I would avoid using the term MC in this play.  I would call it unsportsmanlike and eject.  This allows you to not call an out.

 

FED is pretty clear that MC is an ejection and an out (if on offense..3-3-1 PEN).  If I am DHC and you tell me you have MC and no out, then I start arguing.

[umpire_scott]

 

 

 

 

I know in cases of malicious contact the runner is also called out on the play. 

 

You can't know that, because it's false. If you can't think of an example, I'll post one.

 

I understand that you're asking another question, but for the sake of newer umpires I thought it was worth correcting this comment.

 

 

So you are saying that if malicious contact occurs the runner is ejected, but if he was safe the run still counts?  Or are you simply saying that there are exceptions?

 

Here is what the American Legion Rule Book says:

 

Any player who, in the judgment of the umpire, maliciously contacts another player is 

automatically ejected and, if the offender is a runner, is declared out. 

 

 

So consider this play:

 

SITUATION: R1, stealing on the pitch. F6 covers the base, straddling it. The throw is high and late: R1 slides in safely under the tag. R1 requests time, and the BU grants it. F6 mutters something, and R1 gets up and shoves F6 to the ground maliciously.

 

RULING: R1 is ejected for MC, and a substitute will take his place on the bases (R1 not out).

 

Now, I don't do Legion, so I don't know whether they envision the possibility of recording an out while the ball is dead. The context of the quoted rule is the OBS provisions, and the rest of the passage discusses contact at HP during play and how to slide or avoid contact with F2.

 

Calling a runner out when the ball is dead strikes me as odd, it's not that way in any other rule set, and without specific and explicit direction from Legion I don't think I'd have an out there.

 

 

I agree with your ruling just not the language used.  I would avoid using the term MC in this play.  I would call it unsportsmanlike and eject.  This allows you to not call an out.

 

FED is pretty clear that MC is an ejection and an out (if on offense..3-3-1 PEN).  If I am DHC and you tell me you have MC and no out, then I start arguing.

 

 

.I tend to agree with this.  It seems to me that MC is it's own entity and refers only to collisions not other types of contact, however "malicious" it may be construed to be.  So in FED if a player is safe on the steal and then comes up and punches or shoves F4 do you eject and allow a replacement or do you construe that as MC?