Play at 3rd

[treydawgmt]

So, my partner and I a few weeks ago had this play, and I forgot to bring it up.  Runner coming into 3rd base, ball thrown from outfield.  Where runners are, outs, etc I don't remember but also not important.

 

Runner just gets to 3rd base and is standing there at the same exact moment the throw comes in.  The momentum of the catch carries F5 into R3 and pushes R3 off the base for a second.  No tag is ever applied, so it was easy.  R3 steps back on the base, all is good.  What if there was a tag after F5 pushes him off the base?  Wouldn't we need to call OBS, which would then be an automatic 1 base award (FED rules here) which to me seems a bit ridiculous.  But how else am I going to protect the runner to 3rd that is getting pushed off the base?

[Replacematt]

So, my partner and I a few weeks ago had this play, and I forgot to bring it up.  Runner coming into 3rd base, ball thrown from outfield.  Where runners are, outs, etc I don't remember but also not important.

 

Runner just gets to 3rd base and is standing there at the same exact moment the throw comes in.  The momentum of the catch carries F5 into R3 and pushes R3 off the base for a second.  No tag is ever applied, so it was easy.  R3 steps back on the base, all is good.  What if there was a tag after F5 pushes him off the base?  Wouldn't we need to call OBS, which would then be an automatic 1 base award (FED rules here) which to me seems a bit ridiculous.  But how else am I going to protect the runner to 3rd that is getting pushed off the base?

From what I'm seeing, you'd end up with an out.

[treydawgmt]

So at any time, anywhere, a fielder can just push a guy off a base and tag him out?  While a throw carried him into the runner, the runner was clearly pushed off.  While I agree you could be right, I just don't know why the throw would change this from a guy just standing on a base and a fielder muscling him off and tagging him.

[Jocko]

No no no. Theres no OBS because the runner is on the base. And if the defensive player pushes him off the bag, I have nothing. Call time and reset everyone. Theres no WAY youre getting an out here.

[Replacematt]

So at any time, anywhere, a fielder can just push a guy off a base and tag him out?  While a throw carried him into the runner, the runner was clearly pushed off.  While I agree you could be right, I just don't know why the throw would change this from a guy just standing on a base and a fielder muscling him off and tagging him.

The issue boils down to how securely the runner had the bag. I'm having a hard time, absent a big size differential, where a fielder would be able to knock a runner who has secured the bag off of it.

[noumpere]

So, my partner and I a few weeks ago had this play, and I forgot to bring it up.  Runner coming into 3rd base, ball thrown from outfield.  Where runners are, outs, etc I don't remember but also not important.

 

Runner just gets to 3rd base and is standing there at the same exact moment the throw comes in.  The momentum of the catch carries F5 into R3 and pushes R3 off the base for a second.  No tag is ever applied, so it was easy.  R3 steps back on the base, all is good.  What if there was a tag after F5 pushes him off the base?  Wouldn't we need to call OBS, which would then be an automatic 1 base award (FED rules here) which to me seems a bit ridiculous.  But how else am I going to protect the runner to 3rd that is getting pushed off the base?

Those two things are different situations and get different answers.

[maven]

If a runner  is standing still, balanced, on a base, and a collision with a fielder moves him off the base, that's nothing: at the end of play, call time and reset. If the fielder deliberately pushes the runner to move him off the base, you could conceivably have defensive MC (ejection, no base award), otherwise still nothing (but talk to that fielder).

 

If a runner is still moving or off balance on or near a base, and legal contact with a fielder results in the runner losing contact with the base, then you have a runner off a base, out if tagged. You could even reinstate a force play if the angles are right.

 

There are clear cases, and there are borderline cases. Rule in favor of the runner in borderline cases.

[grayhawk]

You see this with tag attempts from time to time where the fielder tries to force the runner's hand off the bag with his glove. If you judge the runner's hand was slipping off the bag while the tag was applied, then get the out. If you judge that the runner had the bag, but the force of the fielder's tag pushed it off, then it's nothing (but tell the fielder that he's not going to get away with that today).

In the OP, I do not have an out since the runner was physically pushed off the bag.

[noumpere]

If a runner  is standing still, balanced, on a base, and a collision with a fielder moves him off the base, that's nothing: at the end of play, call time and reset.

Why isn't that a train wreck and play on?

[maven]

 

If a runner  is standing still, balanced, on a base, and a collision with a fielder moves him off the base, that's nothing: at the end of play, call time and reset.

Why isn't that a train wreck and play on?

 

 

It's not a train wreck because one of the trains is standing still.