New ejection rule for USSSA Georgia

[johnnyg08]

I think in youth ball, the manager can be in control of his fans.  The youth coach is likely a parent of a child on the team.   The fans are mainly parents of the team so they're probably peers.  

 

At the youth level, I see no issue w/ this.  Not to mention there are typically many "ass-isstants" on the team who can help keep the fans in control.

 

 

If we're at a point in youth baseball where they have to include this type of rule, then it's probably a good rule.  

[BigUmpire]

I think in youth ball, the manager can be in control of his fans.  The youth coach is likely a parent of a child on the team.   The fans are mainly parents of the team so they're probably peers.  

 

At the youth level, I see no issue w/ this.  Not to mention there are typically many "ass-isstants" on the team who can help keep the fans in control.

 

 

If we're at a point in youth baseball where they have to include this type of rule, then it's probably a good rule.  

We are there because of wimpy ass umpires that are currently calling games "teach" the current crop of daddy coaches that misbehaving will be allowed as well as TDs that only care about the registration money and will overturn an ejection to get the coach to come to his next tournament.

[johnnyg08]

There is probably a little bit of truth to that BUT youth baseball is also where an umpire goes to learn. An adult coach has no business charging or abusing a teenage umpire or any umpire who is learning.

[Rich Ives]

 

I completely agree the rules are as you say in those leagues, doesn't mean the manager shouldn't be preemptive in fan/coach control. If you know a guy is a jack wagon, don't have him coach. I saw a team fire their manager and a his son removed from the team because they simply could not control themselves and it was affecting the team.

My point about the player was to show I controlled my team unlike many managers. Managers are responsible for more than line-ups and pitching changes.

Not according to Rich

 

 

I said the manager is nor responsible for people OUTSIDE THE FENCE.  If you can find where I said something else please post the post #. 

 

You need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

[BigUmpire]

There is probably a little bit of truth to that BUT youth baseball is also where an umpire goes to learn. An adult coach has no business charging or abusing a teenage umpire or any umpire who is learning.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Agree- BUT if an inexperenced umpire is confronted by a RAT coach he will most likely NOT eject when he should.

We always place a senior umpire with our nubies for 2 years.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

  Anyone who thinks that a manager has or can achieve absolute control (or even limited control) over parents, sponsors, and spectators is absolutely clueless.

Of course no one can "achieve absolute control" over another.

But that's what the Georgia rule requires.  Now what?

Lets set aside your hyperbolic use of "absolute control", because the Georgia rule does not require it.

 

If the rule quoted in Post#1 is correct it certainly does.

 

Yesterday someone wrote (and then deleted) that a HC that notices that the parents are getting out of control is not paying enough attention to the game. I guess he deleted it because he knows that's poppy-cock.

 

That was me. It is still there in post #40. It is absolutely not poppycock.

 

In youth ball there are some coaches who want to "work" the umpire. And then there are some coaches that know that they can't "work" the umpire, so they allow their fans to "work" the umpire for them.

 

You are right on this as long as you continue to recognize that it only "some" as you stated.

 

Some parents can't let kids play a kids game without trying to influence the game.

 

That is very true. They try coaching much more tnan they try ump-baiting. I spend a lot of time trying to get the kids to ignore them. I once had a kid thru and yell "Shut up Mom, I'm trying ot hit".

 

Good umpires have learned to disregard what they hear from outside the fence and in fact come here and advise the new umpires to disregard what comes from outside the fence.

 

The Georgia rule gives umpires a tool with which to prevent this.

 

It's an ill-advised rule. It should be the TDs job to maintain order at his event. I've read many a post about USSSA TDs throwing umpires under the bus. Yet you think it's OK for him to to the same to the managers? The LL rule allows the umpire to suspend play until the league administration gets things under control. It's a better way. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

 

 

See the comments embedded in the quote.

[BigUmpire]

 

 

 

 

  Anyone who thinks that a manager has or can achieve absolute control (or even limited control) over parents, sponsors, and spectators is absolutely clueless.

Of course no one can "achieve absolute control" over another.

But that's what the Georgia rule requires.  Now what?

Lets set aside your hyperbolic use of "absolute control", because the Georgia rule does not require it.

 

If the rule quoted in Post#1 is correct it certainly does.

 

Yesterday someone wrote (and then deleted) that a HC that notices that the parents are getting out of control is not paying enough attention to the game. I guess he deleted it because he knows that's poppy-cock.

 

That was me. It is still there in post #40. It is absolutely not poppycock.

 

In youth ball there are some coaches who want to "work" the umpire. And then there are some coaches that know that they can't "work" the umpire, so they allow their fans to "work" the umpire for them.

 

You are right on this as long as you continue to recognize that it only "some" as you stated.

 

Some parents can't let kids play a kids game without trying to influence the game.

 

That is very true. They try coaching much more tnan they try ump-baiting. I spend a lot of time trying to get the kids to ignore them. I once had a kid thru and yell "Shut up Mom, I'm trying ot hit".

 

Good umpires have learned to disregard what they hear from outside the fence and in fact come here and advise the new umpires to disregard what comes from outside the fence.

 

The Georgia rule gives umpires a tool with which to prevent this.

 

It's an ill-advised rule. It should be the TDs job to maintain order at his event. I've read many a post about USSSA TDs throwing umpires under the bus. Yet you think it's OK for him to to the same to the managers? The LL rule allows the umpire to suspend play until the league administration gets things under control. It's a better way. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

 

 

See the comments embedded in the quote.

 

"It should be the TDs job to maintain order at his event" Back on one of the rides at Disneyland for you Rich.

[Rich Ives]

There is probably a little bit of truth to that BUT youth baseball is also where an umpire goes to learn. An adult coach has no business charging or abusing a teenage umpire or any umpire who is learning.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapat

 

I think in youth ball, the manager can be in control of his fans.  The youth coach is likely a parent of a child on the team.   The fans are mainly parents of the team so they're probably peers.  

 

At the youth level, I see no issue w/ this.  Not to mention there are typically many "ass-isstants" on the team who can help keep the fans in control.

 

 

If we're at a point in youth baseball where they have to include this type of rule, then it's probably a good rule.  

 

And how are we supposed to control the fans? Go sit in the stands with them? Which stands - people go sit in their favorite game-watching spot. They usually aren't all in one place.  We have a dozen kids to keep behaving and in focus as well as the game play itself to manage. You want to add monitoring and interxceeding with a group of people scattered around the field? Get real.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

 

 

  Anyone who thinks that a manager has or can achieve absolute control (or even limited control) over parents, sponsors, and spectators is absolutely clueless.

Of course no one can "achieve absolute control" over another.

But that's what the Georgia rule requires.  Now what?

Lets set aside your hyperbolic use of "absolute control", because the Georgia rule does not require it.

 

If the rule quoted in Post#1 is correct it certainly does.

 

Yesterday someone wrote (and then deleted) that a HC that notices that the parents are getting out of control is not paying enough attention to the game. I guess he deleted it because he knows that's poppy-cock.

 

That was me. It is still there in post #40. It is absolutely not poppycock.

 

In youth ball there are some coaches who want to "work" the umpire. And then there are some coaches that know that they can't "work" the umpire, so they allow their fans to "work" the umpire for them.

 

You are right on this as long as you continue to recognize that it only "some" as you stated.

 

Some parents can't let kids play a kids game without trying to influence the game.

 

That is very true. They try coaching much more tnan they try ump-baiting. I spend a lot of time trying to get the kids to ignore them. I once had a kid thru and yell "Shut up Mom, I'm trying ot hit".

 

Good umpires have learned to disregard what they hear from outside the fence and in fact come here and advise the new umpires to disregard what comes from outside the fence.

 

The Georgia rule gives umpires a tool with which to prevent this.

 

It's an ill-advised rule. It should be the TDs job to maintain order at his event. I've read many a post about USSSA TDs throwing umpires under the bus. Yet you think it's OK for him to to the same to the managers? The LL rule allows the umpire to suspend play until the league administration gets things under control. It's a better way. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

 

 

See the comments embedded in the quote.

 

"It should be the TDs job to maintain order at his event" Back on one of the rides at Disneyland for you Rich.

 

 

Disneyland my ass. If you go to a game at your local pro park who maintains order - the park management or the team manager? If you go to a HS basketball game who maintains order - the site management ot the head coach? Name any organized event where the participants, rather than the organizers, are responsible for maintaining order. If the guy next to you in the stands belts you in the mouth are you going to ask the team manager to stop managing and take care of it in an appropriate manner or are you going to ask the site management?

 

Get real folks. Ain't the manager or coach's job anywhere to control the crowd.

 

See you folks in another thread.

[BigUmpire]

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Anyone who thinks that a manager has or can achieve absolute control (or even limited control) over parents, sponsors, and spectators is absolutely clueless.

Of course no one can "achieve absolute control" over another.

But that's what the Georgia rule requires.  Now what?

Lets set aside your hyperbolic use of "absolute control", because the Georgia rule does not require it.

 

If the rule quoted in Post#1 is correct it certainly does.

 

Yesterday someone wrote (and then deleted) that a HC that notices that the parents are getting out of control is not paying enough attention to the game. I guess he deleted it because he knows that's poppy-cock.

 

That was me. It is still there in post #40. It is absolutely not poppycock.

 

In youth ball there are some coaches who want to "work" the umpire. And then there are some coaches that know that they can't "work" the umpire, so they allow their fans to "work" the umpire for them.

 

You are right on this as long as you continue to recognize that it only "some" as you stated.

 

Some parents can't let kids play a kids game without trying to influence the game.

 

That is very true. They try coaching much more tnan they try ump-baiting. I spend a lot of time trying to get the kids to ignore them. I once had a kid thru and yell "Shut up Mom, I'm trying ot hit".

 

Good umpires have learned to disregard what they hear from outside the fence and in fact come here and advise the new umpires to disregard what comes from outside the fence.

 

The Georgia rule gives umpires a tool with which to prevent this.

 

It's an ill-advised rule. It should be the TDs job to maintain order at his event. I've read many a post about USSSA TDs throwing umpires under the bus. Yet you think it's OK for him to to the same to the managers? The LL rule allows the umpire to suspend play until the league administration gets things under control. It's a better way. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

 

 

See the comments embedded in the quote.

 

"It should be the TDs job to maintain order at his event" Back on one of the rides at Disneyland for you Rich.

 

 

Disneyland my ass. If you go to a game at your local pro park who maintains order - the park management or the team manager? If you go to a HS basketball game who maintains order - the site management ot the head coach? Name any organized event where the participants, rather than the organizers, are responsible for maintaining order. If the guy next to you in the stands belts you in the mouth are you going to ask the team manager to stop managing and take care of it in an appropriate manner or are you going to ask the site management?

 

Get real folks. Ain't the manager or coach's job anywhere to control the crowd.

 

See you folks in another thread.

 

Line is short for the "its a small world" ride

[ricka56]

Good umpires have learned to disregard what they hear from outside the fence and in fact come here and advise the new umpires to disregard what comes from outside the fence.

Fixed this for you:

Good umpires have learned to disregard most of what they hear from outside the fences.

 

...but when it starts to impact the game, then this umpire doesn't put up with it in youth baseball

[johnnyg08]

Get real folks. Ain't the manager or coach's job anywhere to control the crowd.

Except it is. Except many of the TD's are just as nuts as the fans.

I applaud the rule. I don't work youth baseball and the youth baseball around here is 1 man and often times 16 yr old kids are getting their start.

[ricka56]

"Coach, I'm all for parental support of the teams, but that guy in the blue T-shirt is out of control. Can you help me out and go talk to your parents. Cause the next time I stop the game, someone is going to the parking lot."

 

To me that seems like a reasonable request. While a "no, that not my problem", doesn't seem to be a reasonable response. I don't often have to take this step and only once can I recall where I got this unreasonable response. After I pointed out that it was about to become his problem, he went to chat with his peps while I went to the mound to ask F1 if he'd like another ball. And we didn't have any more problems.

 

This doesn't have to be an umpire/coach pissing contest, but if it becomes one, nobody looks good.

[BigUmpire]

GREAT NEW Umpire bumper sticker:

 

"Coach, I'm all for parental support of the teams, but that guy in the blue T-shirt is out of control. Can you help me out and go talk to your parents. Cause the next time I stop the game, someone is going to the parking lot."-ricka56

[SoCal Lurker]

There is probably a little bit of truth to that BUT youth baseball is also where an umpire goes to learn. An adult coach has no business charging or abusing a teenage umpire or any umpire who is learning.

 

The problem I see in the real world is that this rule makes it harder not easier for that rookie ump to toss the assistant coach.  Now instead of just tossing the horses behind, he has to toss the nice, polite gentleman, too. 

 

If the real issue is too many assistant coaches permits them to be abusive, limit the team to to three coaches -- and require one to be in the dugout.  That means if an assistant gets tossed, the team only has one base coach, so there is some direct impact.

[BigUmpire]

1. The "nice, polite gentleman" probably does not fit the description of most youth head coaches.
2. IF the "nice, polite gentleman" cannot control his own assistant coaches by having a preseason understanding and/or getting ahead of an escalating game situation then BUBYE he is gone as well.
3. Your theory/proposed rule to “limit the team to three coaches -- and require one to be in the dugout†sounds good BUT leagues rarely consult an umpire association on the local rules they pull out of their butts AND (I am going to very negative here based on my own experiences in Georgia, Missouri and a few other states where I have lived) most of the time youth leagues are governed by either individuals that get themselves elected so they can manipulate the league for their own team OR soccer moms  that get elected because guys are focused on baseball and these moms don’t have a clue but focus on opening day ceremonies and what to serve in the concession stand (local league in a town close to me has a board of 9 + 1 president, 6 are women and only 3 have played church league slowpitch softball) . Therefore these elected league officials stay in a reactive mode, if they are even the park on game days, and only engage when an issue is way past managing AND most of the time will throw and umpire under the bus to placate the parents.

Toss them!

 

The growing trend, at least here, is that more and more real baseball people are leaving the league management positions because the above mentioned CRAP.

Get ready where you are.

[SoCal Lurker]

 

1. The "nice, polite gentleman" probably does not fit the description of most youth head coaches.
2. IF the "nice, polite gentleman" cannot control his own assistant coaches by having a preseason understanding and/or getting ahead of an escalating game situation then BUBYE he is gone as well.
3. Your theory/proposed rule to “limit the team to three coaches -- and require one to be in the dugout†sounds good BUT leagues rarely consult an umpire association on the local rules they pull out of their butts AND (I am going to very negative here based on my own experiences in Georgia, Missouri and a few other states where I have lived) most of the time youth leagues are governed by either individuals that get themselves elected so they can manipulate the league for their own team OR soccer moms  that get elected because guys are focused on baseball and these moms don’t have a clue but focus on opening day ceremonies and what to serve in the concession stand (local league in a town close to me has a board of 9 + 1 president, 6 are women and only 3 have played church league slowpitch softball) . Therefore these elected league officials stay in a reactive mode, if they are even the park on game days, and only engage when an issue is way past managing AND most of the time will throw and umpire under the bus to placate the parents.

Toss them!

 

The growing trend, at least here, is that more and more real baseball people are leaving the league management positions because the above mentioned CRAP.

Get ready where you are.

 

 

I'm not arguing to protect the HC.  My only point is that sometimes ratcheting up the immediate consequences makies it harder -- especially on newbies -- to do what needs to be done.  T'would be much better to have real consequences after the fact -- auto suspension, extra suspension if abusing a youth ump, etc.  But I take your point that umpires don't make the rules. So much of this is how a league sets expectations and enforces them. 

[sthomas13100]

I don't chime in much around here, but I have to on this subject.  We invoked this rule at our park 3 years ago with a great amount of success.  In youth baseball, parents are so close to the playing field and each team usually has 4-7 coaches.  So, umpires are at times forced to deal with off field issues. 

 

When a parent crosses the line, and they know that they are going to the parking lot along with the head coach, its amazing the result you get.  Our ejections have reduced and the atmosphere is much better for all participants, including all our umpires.  Now, we have a diamond official that covers each quad, the umpire never address a fan directly.  Diamond official deal with off-field matter.  Umpire will warn manager of a potential problem and ask him to deal with it.  A second parent ejection will then constitute a forfeit.

 

With over 1500 games last year, we had two fan ejections.  Those ejections ultimately lead to those individuals being banned for the remainder of the season, one actually lead to us pressing assault charges and may never return.  Now, we still have head coach ejections.  We will confine them to the dugout, which usually doesn't work, unfortunately.

 

One more thing, any assistant gets punted, head coach goes also.

 

It does work at our park with t-ball thru 14U in rec and travel ball.

[BigUmpire]

I don't chime in much around here, but I have to on this subject.  We invoked this rule at our park 3 years ago with a great amount of success.  In youth baseball, parents are so close to the playing field and each team usually has 4-7 coaches.  So, umpires are at times forced to deal with off field issues. 

 

When a parent crosses the line, and they know that they are going to the parking lot along with the head coach, its amazing the result you get.  Our ejections have reduced and the atmosphere is much better for all participants, including all our umpires.  Now, we have a diamond official that covers each quad, the umpire never address a fan directly.  Diamond official deal with off-field matter.  Umpire will warn manager of a potential problem and ask him to deal with it.  A second parent ejection will then constitute a forfeit.

 

With over 1500 games last year, we had two fan ejections.  Those ejections ultimately lead to those individuals being banned for the remainder of the season, one actually lead to us pressing assault charges and may never return.  Now, we still have head coach ejections.  We will confine them to the dugout, which usually doesn't work, unfortunately.

 

One more thing, any assistant gets punted, head coach goes also.

 

It does work at our park with t-ball thru 14U in rec and travel ball.

I LIKE IT!!!!!!

[James Walker]

  We will confine them to the dugout, which usually doesn't work, unfortunately.

 

This is something I will never understand. If a coach does something bad enough to be restricted, generally it's a electable offense. Why not just dump the coach and get rid of the problem rather than just sending him to the dugout to stew in his stupidity, anger and displeasure with the umpire. IMO, this is just asking for trouble.

[BigUmpire]

 

  We will confine them to the dugout, which usually doesn't work, unfortunately.

 

This is something I will never understand. If a coach does something bad enough to be restricted, generally it's a electable offense. Why not just dump the coach and get rid of the problem rather than just sending him to the dugout to stew in his stupidity, anger and displeasure with the umpire. IMO, this is just asking for trouble.

 

I rarly restrict a coach BUT use this rule to restrict a bat thrower or some other safety issue. Ejections for players carry post game penalities.

I agree MOST adults need to go the PARKING LOT!

[sthomas13100]

James, the thought process is after the game and the UIC, TD, and Coach have a conversation after the game or have to appear before a disciplinary board. Then we can say, "Hey coach, you had been warned, the Umpire restricted you to the dugout and you continued with your behavior.  So, you now have a one week suspension.  Not another incident!"

 

Now, we still give every umpire the right to dump at anytime for the obvious offenses.  This is similar to technical fouls in basketball, so right or wrong, our TD and board have asked us to try and keep a coach in the game, if possible.  Like I said, it rarely cools down the coach and he'll just continue to dig his grave.  And this falls in line with the high school guys in our area. 

 

Now, I will say restricting assistant coaches to the dugout is very effective.  The "game" the coaches play that Big was referring to is this, send my assistant to the umpire, so he head coach can say "hey blue, what did I do wrong??"  So, if someone other than head comes, then restrict him and require the head coach to deal with you directly.

 

Something had to be done, baseball is too good of a sport!

[James Walker]

We will confine them to the dugout, which usually doesn't work, unfortunately.

This is something I will never understand. If a coach does something bad enough to be restricted, generally it's a electable offense. Why not just dump the coach and get rid of the problem rather than just sending him to the dugout to stew in his stupidity, anger and displeasure with the umpire. IMO, this is just asking for trouble.

I rarly restrict a coach BUT use this rule to restrict a bat thrower or some other safety issue. Ejections for players carry post game penalities.

I agree ALL adults need to stay in the PARKING LOT!

FIFY

[BigUmpire]

 

 

 

We will confine them to the dugout, which usually doesn't work, unfortunately.

This is something I will never understand. If a coach does something bad enough to be restricted, generally it's a electable offense. Why not just dump the coach and get rid of the problem rather than just sending him to the dugout to stew in his stupidity, anger and displeasure with the umpire. IMO, this is just asking for trouble. I rarly restrict a coach BUT use this rule to restrict a bat thrower or some other safety issue. Ejections for players carry post game penalities.

I agree ALL adults need to stay in the PARKING LOT!

FIFY

 

Agreed!

 

Bumper Sticker:

• “Youth sports should be played by orphansâ€.- sdandersonjr

[James Walker]

@sthomas13100 "This is similar to technical fouls in basketball, so right or wrong, our TD and board have asked us to try and keep a coach in the game, if possible"

This absolutely irritates me to no end. Keeping coaches/kids in games doesn't teach them anything. To me, restricting is almost like giving them a free pass. People need to be held accountable for their actions.