Getting help

[mstaylor]

I was doing book for our adult wooden bat tournament tonight. Some really good plays, two decent games, but the first was marred by a bad umpire decision. LH batter, ex-MLB pitcher on the mound. Pitcher throws an up and out pitch so the catcher is coming up and throwing after a R2 stealing third. Umpire didn't get an angle and calls him safe. Manager is out like a rocket, saying he didn't have an angle and needs to get help. Another commissioner(a Harry grad) and I are in the booth and both say no way. Noooo, BU says sure,and goes to the PU. They talk and he comes out with an out. We both look at each other and agree he just needs to go to the parking lot because his cred is done. Later in the game a LH pitcher picks a R1 who gets in a rundown. BU calls him safe. Now the other manager comes out to question and points at the PU, sure enough, here he comes looking for help. They keep it safe but it was ugly.

In the parking lot I told him that he can not do that. It was mentioned to another Harry grad and D1 umpire. He says you told him to pack sand, right? I asked the manager what he said to the umpire to get him to check. He told me and then said the other commissioner that was watching the game with me would never ask. I told him I wouldn't have either.

After the second game we had five umpires in the parking lot, the two Harry grads, myself and two with MiLB fill- in experience, all of us with college experience, four of us were commissioners. We all agreed no way do you ask in that situation.

<br /><br />Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br />

[Chip]

If BU didn't have an angle, as you say was the case on the first play, why not go for help?

Seems the admonition to "get it right" applies.

Agree you shouldn't go for help just because a coach asks, but if I somehow end up out of position and have reasonable doubt, I have no problem checking with my partner to find out if he saw something I didn't. That said, I wouldn't overturn my original call unless my partner was certain and gave me info I didn't have.

[BigUmp56]

If BU didn't have an angle, as you say was the case on the first play, why not go for help?

Seems the admonition to "get it right" applies.

Agree you shouldn't go for help just because a coach asks, but if I somehow end up out of position and have reasonable doubt, I have no problem checking with my partner to find out if he saw something I didn't. That said, I wouldn't overturn my original call unless my partner was certain and gave me info I didn't have.

 

This is what I've been saying for quite some time. Pride be damned, if I feel I've been straightlined or screwed to pooch and ended up out of position, I'm going to go to my partner for help if asked. I realize that we all need to do our best to never get caught out of position, but $h1t happens sometimes, and ultimately I want to get the call right.

 

 

Tim.

[BigUmpire]

Its like feeding a stray dog on the back porch, they will keep coming back for more after the first bowl.

As always MT is correct.

[UMP45]

 

If BU didn't have an angle, as you say was the case on the first play, why not go for help?

Seems the admonition to "get it right" applies.

Agree you shouldn't go for help just because a coach asks, but if I somehow end up out of position and have reasonable doubt, I have no problem checking with my partner to find out if he saw something I didn't. That said, I wouldn't overturn my original call unless my partner was certain and gave me info I didn't have.

 

This is what I've been saying for quite some time. Pride be damned, if I feel I've been straightlined or screwed to pooch and ended up out of position, I'm going to go to my partner for help if asked. I realize that we all need to do our best to never get caught out of position, but $h1t happens sometimes, and ultimately I want to get the call right.

 

 

Tim.

 

[BigUmp56]

Its like feeding a stray dog on the back porch, they will keep coming back for more after the first bowl.

As always MT is correct.

It's not that difficult to shut them down when you're 100% certain that you were in the right position and made the right call. I suspect that no one here is good enough to have never been out of position and possibly kicked a call. Refusing to get help when help may be available is just plain arrogant.

 

Tim.

[umpire_scott]

Something another umpire once told me when I'm not in good position to make a call is to delay my call a few seconds, while taking a few steps to get that better angle.  Sort of use the few steps to step into your safe or out call.

[BigUmpire]

Something another umpire once told me when I'm not in good position to make a call is to delay my call a few seconds, while taking a few steps to get that better angle.  Sort of use the few steps to step into your safe or out call.

You are kidding?

[BigUmp56]

Something another umpire once told me when I'm not in good position to make a call is to delay my call a few seconds, while taking a few steps to get that better angle.  Sort of use the few steps to step into your safe or out call.

 

 

Scott,

 

There's a mechanic called "lean and look" for plays where you've been straightlined. It can include a step in either direction to see the play, but it doesn't include an arbitrary delay in making the call.

 

 

Maybe that's what they were telling you?

 

 

Tim.

[afaber12]

I've heard something similar. Get in the best position you can but be set for the play. Not so much delay the call but take a step or two with your out/safe mechanic. The reasoning was that it can look like you we're in that better position to see the play, and therefore help sell the call. This was from a guy who's worked big time games, so I figure its a good example to follow. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BigUmpire]

Sounds like you are moving too much.

Might be OK.

I just let the ball take me to the play, lock in and sell it.

[umpire_scott]

I've heard something similar. Get in the best position you can but be set for the play. Not so much delay the call but take a step or two with your out/safe mechanic. The reasoning was that it can look like you we're in that better position to see the play, and therefore help sell the call. This was from a guy who's worked big time games, so I figure its a good example to follow. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

This is what I was meaning to say, and thought I did say.  I was not meaning to delay such that it was noticeable.  But more of a stepping into your safe/out mechanic so that when you make the call you are closer than you were when you actually saw the play.  Might keep a few coaches off your back.

 

In looking back at my post I realize I did say "take a few seconds".  That was worded poorly.

[maven]

Sometimes you can get help and get it right without losing credibility. Sometimes, coach is just fishing for a different call. There is no general rule as to which is which.

 

As usual, game management skills distinguish the great umpires from the merely good.

[mstaylor]

On the first call he was on the wrong position and missed the call. The PU had it,I had it in the pressbox. It was a simple no brainer call that he needs to make. Then the call at first was right and he was in position, but because he had already gone on the first one, he had to go a second time. Don't go the first thinking and all is good.<br /><br />Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br />

[umpstu]

Going for help on a steal attempt is pretty lame, getting the call right or not. 

[Chip]

To me, the most important thing is to get the call right. If I end up with some egg on my face, so be it. Hopefully I learn from it and put myself in a better position next time. Steadfastly insisting on a call I think might be wrong and could be quickly and easily fixed just so I don't have another call questioned later in the game doesn't make sense to me.

[umpstu]

To me, the most important thing is to get the call right. If I end up with some egg on my face, so be it. Hopefully I learn from it and put myself in a better position next time. Steadfastly insisting on a call I think might be wrong and could be quickly and easily fixed just so I don't have another call questioned later in the game doesn't make sense to me.

Not egg. The opposing coach will probably think that you were talked into changing your call. 

[umpire_scott]

 

To me, the most important thing is to get the call right. If I end up with some egg on my face, so be it. Hopefully I learn from it and put myself in a better position next time.  Steadfastly insisting on a call I think might be wrong and could be quickly and easily fixed just so I don't have another call questioned later in the game doesn't make sense to me.

Not egg. The opposing coach will probably think that you were talked into changing your call. 

 

 

In this case if the coach first came out and discussed the call with me, then I'm not going to ask my partner for help for that exact reason.  Once he tries to change my mind, he's given up his right to ask me to go for help now.  But if he comes right away and politely says "I think you had a bad angle on that can you get help from your partner?", then I'm probably calling my partner over.  

[zm1283]

If BU didn't have an angle, as you say was the case on the first play, why not go for help?

Seems the admonition to "get it right" applies.

Agree you shouldn't go for help just because a coach asks, but if I somehow end up out of position and have reasonable doubt, I have no problem checking with my partner to find out if he saw something I didn't. That said, I wouldn't overturn my original call unless my partner was certain and gave me info I didn't have.

 

 

To me, the most important thing is to get the call right. If I end up with some egg on my face, so be it. Hopefully I learn from it and put myself in a better position next time. Steadfastly insisting on a call I think might be wrong and could be quickly and easily fixed just so I don't have another call questioned later in the game doesn't make sense to me.

 

The most important thing is to get the call right the first time on your own.  

 

The situation described is not where you go for help, and anyone at HS varsity (coaches/umpires) and above knows that.  This is simply not done at higher levels, so if you want to advance, don't do what Mike described.  If you don't want to be put in these situations (Having to go for help on a play like this), then get better on the bases.

 

As for Scott talking about "walking into" your call, it is taught.  Get set for the play (Usually a tag play), and see the play while set, then come up and walk toward the play a couple of steps making your out/safe call.  It is usually done when you're not as close as you would like to be and want to sell it that you were right on it.  They aren't looking at you until you make the call anyway so it looks like you're closer than you were.

[zm1283]

 

 

To me, the most important thing is to get the call right. If I end up with some egg on my face, so be it. Hopefully I learn from it and put myself in a better position next time.  Steadfastly insisting on a call I think might be wrong and could be quickly and easily fixed just so I don't have another call questioned later in the game doesn't make sense to me.

Not egg. The opposing coach will probably think that you were talked into changing your call. 

 

 

In this case if the coach first came out and discussed the call with me, then I'm not going to ask my partner for help for that exact reason.  Once he tries to change my mind, he's given up his right to ask me to go for help now.  But if he comes right away and politely says "I think you had a bad angle on that can you get help from your partner?", then I'm probably calling my partner over.  

 

 

This makes no sense at all.  You have no business going for help on this play.  As happened in the game, everyone is now shopping around for help whenever possible and you've lost credibility.  I'd rather kick one call, stick with it, and get everything else right the rest of the game than do what the guy in Mike's game did, which made him look far worse.  Hell why even have a base umpire?

[umpire_scott]

I have worked many tournaments where the TD's want you to go for help to pacify the coaches.  To seem approachable.  Even if you go to your partner and talk about who is buying beer after the games.  So I do agree that HS Varsity and higher that would not be an appropriate play to go for help, but at many travel ball tournaments I've worked in different states, it's encouraged.

[Specks]

I have worked many tournaments where the TD's want you to go for help to pacify the coaches.  To seem approachable.  Even if you go to your partner and talk about who is buying beer after the games.  So I do agree that HS Varsity and higher that would not be an appropriate play to go for help, but at many travel ball tournaments I've worked in different states, it's encouraged.

This should be discouraged. There is simply no basis for granting an appeal for a judgement call. I might grant an appeal if my partner has additional information, ie. dropped ball, but not to see if he has a different opinion on the same play. It's not a matter of getting the call right, it's a matter of doing your job and getting your calls right.

[BigUmpire]

I have worked many tournaments where the TD's want you to go for help to pacify the coaches.  To seem approachable.  Even if you go to your partner and talk about who is buying beer after the games.  So I do agree that HS Varsity and higher that would not be an appropriate play to go for help, but at many travel ball tournaments I've worked in different states, it's encouraged.

"pacify the coaches" = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

Baseball whores!

[lawump]

In a two-man crew, the base umpire getting "help" on a straight steal of third base by R2 is simply not an acceptable mechanic, period.  If an MiLB umpire in "A" ball did what the base umpire in the OP did, his partner would make him pay for the next three dinners and, if he was being evaluated, the PBUC evaluator would rake him over the coals to his face after the game in the locker room and on his written end-of-season evaluation. 

 

There are times to get together and "get it right," and there are times where its "your call, period."  This OP is an example of the latter.  If you do the former in this situation, you might as well get the rodeo clowns ready.

[BigUmpire]

In a two-man crew, the base umpire getting "help" on a straight steal of third base by R2 is simply not an acceptable mechanic, period.  If an MiLB umpire in "A" ball did what the base umpire in the OP did, his partner would make him pay for the next three dinners and, if he was being evaluated, the PBUC evaluator would rake him over the coals to his face after the game in the locker room and on his written end-of-season evaluation. 

 

There are times to get together and "get it right," and there are times where its "your call, period."  This OP is an example of the latter.  If you do the former in this situation, you might as well get the rodeo clowns ready.

Best answer!