Help Needed

[umpire_scott]

I don't know about you, but after I've called a player Out, I don't want his coach telling him to keep the bag.  That's showing me up.  You're out - leave.

 

If we decide I was wrong, we'll bring the runner back.

 

Why do you look at it as showing you up?  Especially in this case where he was requesting me to get help on a pulled foot.  For all you know the coach may think that if the kid gets to the dugout the umpire might rule that he left the field of play and is out anyway,  

 

Sometimes I think umpires are too sensitive to be "shown up".  Get over it.  The coach is just doing his job.

[Dragon29]

 

I don't know about you, but after I've called a player Out, I don't want his coach telling him to keep the bag.  That's showing me up.  You're out - leave.

 

If we decide I was wrong, we'll bring the runner back.

 

Why do you look at it as showing you up?  Especially in this case where he was requesting me to get help on a pulled foot.  For all you know the coach may think that if the kid gets to the dugout the umpire might rule that he left the field of play and is out anyway,  

 

Sometimes I think umpires are too sensitive to be "shown up".  Get over it.  The coach is just doing his job.

 

 

It's showing me up in two ways.  By having his player stay on the bag, he is encouraging him to ignore a legal instruction from an umpire and he's arguing a judgment call.

 

And, I don't care if the coach doesn't know the rules well enough to handle his business.  If he's stupid enough to think that I'd call a kid out (who, by the way, is already out) for following my instructions, he shouldn't be coaching.

 

If/when he follows the proper procedure for questioning this call and if I reverse myself based upon my partner's information, I am perfectly capable of calling the runner back out to the base.

[umpire_scott]

 

 

I don't know about you, but after I've called a player Out, I don't want his coach telling him to keep the bag.  That's showing me up.  You're out - leave.

 

If we decide I was wrong, we'll bring the runner back.

 

Why do you look at it as showing you up?  Especially in this case where he was requesting me to get help on a pulled foot.  For all you know the coach may think that if the kid gets to the dugout the umpire might rule that he left the field of play and is out anyway,  

 

Sometimes I think umpires are too sensitive to be "shown up".  Get over it.  The coach is just doing his job.

 

 

It's showing me up in two ways.  By having his player stay on the bag, he is encouraging him to ignore a legal instruction from an umpire and he's arguing a judgment call.

 

And, I don't care if the coach doesn't know the rules well enough to handle his business.  If he's stupid enough to think that I'd call a kid out (who, by the way, is already out) for following my instructions, he shouldn't be coaching.

 

If/when he follows the proper procedure for questioning this call and if I reverse myself based upon my partner's information, I am perfectly capable of calling the runner back out to the base.

 

 

To me there has to be intent to be classified as "showing me up".  I've had many coaches tell a player to "stay on the bag" while they asks me about a call.  In this case he was not questioning judgement he was questioning ability to see a pulled foot.  It's a natural instinct to tell the player to stay there until the out is confirmed.  I don't look at that as showing me up at all.

 

Now if it's simply a safe/out judgement call, then I can see your point a little more.  But even in those cases it does not bother me in the slightest that he tells his player to stay on the bag.  I just look at is has him doing his job and I have far better things to worry about then whether he showed me up.

[Dragon29]

 

 

 

I don't know about you, but after I've called a player Out, I don't want his coach telling him to keep the bag.  That's showing me up.  You're out - leave.

 

If we decide I was wrong, we'll bring the runner back.

 

Why do you look at it as showing you up?  Especially in this case where he was requesting me to get help on a pulled foot.  For all you know the coach may think that if the kid gets to the dugout the umpire might rule that he left the field of play and is out anyway,  

 

Sometimes I think umpires are too sensitive to be "shown up".  Get over it.  The coach is just doing his job.

 

 

It's showing me up in two ways.  By having his player stay on the bag, he is encouraging him to ignore a legal instruction from an umpire and he's arguing a judgment call.

 

And, I don't care if the coach doesn't know the rules well enough to handle his business.  If he's stupid enough to think that I'd call a kid out (who, by the way, is already out) for following my instructions, he shouldn't be coaching.

 

If/when he follows the proper procedure for questioning this call and if I reverse myself based upon my partner's information, I am perfectly capable of calling the runner back out to the base.

 

 

To me there has to be intent to be classified as "showing me up".  I've had many coaches tell a player to "stay on the bag" while they asks me about a call.  In this case he was not questioning judgement he was questioning ability to see a pulled foot.  It's a natural instinct to tell the player to stay there until the out is confirmed.  I don't look at that as showing me up at all.

 

Now if it's simply a safe/out judgement call, then I can see your point a little more.  But even in those cases it does not bother me in the slightest that he tells his player to stay on the bag.  I just look at is has him doing his job and I have far better things to worry about then whether he showed me up.

 

 

Well, we'll agree to disagree then.  I used to be more relaxed about this kind of thing, but experience (bad experience) and time have taught me to nip this kind of thing in the bud or it will grow.

 

Me:  He's out!

OC (to player): Stay on the bag!

Me: No, coach.  He's out.  (to player) Please go back to your dugout.

 

To add to this, about half the time, it's an Asst. Coach telling him to do this, not the Manager.  I don't want the Manager telling a player to stay and, as you have seen from my previous posts, I have little or no patience with noisy Asst. Coaches.

 

Now, if the manager wants to discuss it, that's fine - but I'm not discussing it w/his player on the bag.  Why?  Because he's out - he doesn't belong on the bag.  If his status changes, he can come back.

[BigUmp56]

 

 

 

 

To me there has to be intent to be classified as "showing me up".  I've had many coaches tell a player to "stay on the bag" while they asks me about a call.  In this case he was not questioning judgement he was questioning ability to see a pulled foot.  It's a natural instinct to tell the player to stay there until the out is confirmed.  I don't look at that as showing me up at all.

 

Now if it's simply a safe/out judgement call, then I can see your point a little more.  But even in those cases it does not bother me in the slightest that he tells his player to stay on the bag.  I just look at is has him doing his job and I have far better things to worry about then whether he showed me up.

 

 

 

Scott,

 

This is showing the umpire up, arguing a judgment call, and being an indignant ass all rolled into one. When a player is called out he needs to head to the dugout. A coach telling him to stay on the bag is a method the coach is using to directly contradict, and challenge your call. This would be no different than you ringing up a player on a called third, only to have his manager tell him to stay in the box.

 

Tim.

[umpire_scott]

 

 

 

 

 

To me there has to be intent to be classified as "showing me up".  I've had many coaches tell a player to "stay on the bag" while they asks me about a call.  In this case he was not questioning judgement he was questioning ability to see a pulled foot.  It's a natural instinct to tell the player to stay there until the out is confirmed.  I don't look at that as showing me up at all.

 

Now if it's simply a safe/out judgement call, then I can see your point a little more.  But even in those cases it does not bother me in the slightest that he tells his player to stay on the bag.  I just look at is has him doing his job and I have far better things to worry about then whether he showed me up.

 

 

 

Scott,

 

This is showing the umpire up, arguing a judgment call, and being an indignant ass all rolled into one. When a player is called out he needs to head to the dugout. A coach telling him to stay on the bag is a method the coach is using to directly contradict, and challenge your call. This would be no different than you ringing up a player on a called third, only to have his manager tell him to stay in the box.

 

Tim.

 

 

Tim, 

 

This is NOTHING like him telling a kid to stay in the box after a called third strike.  There is NO CHANCE of a called third strike being changed.  There is a chance of an out being changed based on a pulled foot.  Apples to oranges here.  I can tell when a coach is being an indignant ass.  I've had many coaches tell a kid to stay on the bag when they see if the umpire can get help on a call.  Very few of them have been indignant asses when doing this.

 

To me it serves no useful purpose to get into any discussion about the player staying on the bag or not.  So what if he stays there?  Time has been called, ball is dead, no issue.  Then after the dust has settled and if the call remains unchanged the player goes to the dugout.  Why would I waste my time have any conversation prior to the discussion about the call pertaining to whether the player should or should not stay on the base?  Just not worth it in my opinion.

[BigUmp56]

I'll allow you to have the last say on this, Scott. It's futile to try and reason with you. Let them show you up, let them run you like a dog. You're not a problem in my association, and I don't have to clean up your messes.

 

Tim.

[Dragon29]

One last try.

 

You don't have a 'conversation' with him at all. You instruct his player to return to the dugout and then you return to your position.

 

If the manager requests and is granted Time, and then comes to you asking about the call - then you discuss it with him. Not before.

[JaxRolo]

Scott I'm glad you are not a coach, you'd be getting ejected! lol â¤

[umpire_scott]

Scott I'm glad you are not a coach, you'd be getting ejected! lol â¤

 

Ironically when I was coaching I never told a kid to stay on a base.  But I don't think it's showing me up.  For it to be showing me up the coach would have to be implying that he's staying there because you made a bad call.  IMO the coach is telling him to stay there because the play has not been finalized.  Big difference.  

 

What if the coach thought there were only two outs and there was some confusion and he told one of his runners to stay on the base?  Is that showing me up?

[umpire_scott]

I'll allow you to have the last say on this, Scott. It's futile to try and reason with you. Let them show you up, let them run you like a dog. You're not a problem in my association, and I don't have to clean up your messes.

 

Tim.

 

Once again Tim you are confusing someone that disagrees with you as someone that you can't reason with.  

 

If the coach tells his kid to stay on the bag while he discusses a call with me and I completely ignore that fact, discuss the call, and then the kid leaves and goes back to the dugout, exactly how have I been "shown up".  The alternative is to make the kid go back to the dugout then discuss the call with the coach.  This could lead to two situations that make me look far worse then a kid standing on base.  #1 I could end up getting into an altercation with the coach about why his kid has to leave the field instead of wait on the base during the discussion.  #2 I could actually have my partner say they saw a pulled foot and then have to bring the kid back out of the dugout.  And both #1 and #2 together have the potential to make me look like an idiot.

 

Now once again I will say all this depends on the demeanor of the coach.  If he comes out on fire, then I would stop him and say "first off, the runner is out and needs to go to the dugout".  But if he is politely and professionally asking about a call and tells his player to stay on the base while he does this, there is no way that I'm going to risk turning it into an adversarial situation by insisting that the kid go to the dugout.

 

Anyone that wants to do so because they think any coach that does that is showing them up then fine do it.  I'm not telling you that you are wrong and I don't need you to agree with me.  

[maven]

Ironically when I was coaching I never told a kid to stay on a base.  But I don't think it's showing me up.  For it to be showing me up the coach would have to be implying that he's staying there because you made a bad call.  IMO the coach is telling him to stay there because the play has not been finalized.  Big difference. 

More of the same issue for you, it seems, and I apologize for the personal remark. Once I make a call, it has been "finalized." The head coach is entitled to an explanation. He is not entitled to lobby for changing the call.

 

And coaches think I make bad calls all the time — and some even express that opinion — without showing me up. Game officials are responsible for, among other things, managing the game. When a coach tells a runner who has been called out to remain on base, HE has taken over the game. That is one way to show you up.

 

Rules 9.01(b) and 9.01(d) grant you the authority to instruct a runner who has been called out to leave the field, and to eject him for failing to comply. The coach has no similar authority under the rules.

[umpire_scott]

One last try.

 

You don't have a 'conversation' with him at all. You instruct his player to return to the dugout and then you return to your position.

 

If the manager requests and is granted Time, and then comes to you asking about the call - then you discuss it with him. Not before.

 

Well the most recent time that I can recall this happening to me was a few weeks ago.  There was a close call at third base.  HC was coaching third.  The conversation went like this

 

Me; He's out!

HC: His foot got in! Stay there (to the kid), Time! Can I discuss this call with you?

Me: Sure.

HC: His foot got in before the tag.

Me:  Not how I saw it coach.  The tag was on the ankle just prior to the foot hitting bag.

HC: Can you get help?

Me:  No, my partner us 90 feet away and I'm right here.

 

There were a few other things said and I had to end the conversation with "you need to go back to your dugout".  But the point is that the "stay there" and "time can we discuss the call" were all said at the same time.  And in this situation I could definitely see the argument for making the kid go back as there was no way the call was going to be changed.  But the coach did ask me to get help, so maybe in his mind there was a chance of it getting changed and he wasn't just there to argue.

[umpire_scott]

 

Ironically when I was coaching I never told a kid to stay on a base.  But I don't think it's showing me up.  For it to be showing me up the coach would have to be implying that he's staying there because you made a bad call.  IMO the coach is telling him to stay there because the play has not been finalized.  Big difference. 

More of the same issue for you, it seems, and I apologize for the personal remark. Once I make a call, it has been "finalized." The head coach is entitled to an explanation. He is not entitled to lobby for changing the call.

 

And coaches think I make bad calls all the time — and some even express that opinion — without showing me up. Game officials are responsible for, among other things, managing the game. When a coach tells a runner who has been called out to remain on base, HE has taken over the game. That is one way to show you up.

 

Rules 9.01(b) and 9.01(d) grant you the authority to instruct a runner who has been called out to leave the field, and to eject him for failing to comply. The coach has no similar authority under the rules.

 

 

But Maven in the OP we were talking about a play where the coach has asked for the umpire to get help.  I realize that semantically you can argue that the play has been finalized, but can still be changed, rather than then play has not been finalized.  I just don't see the big deal here.

[maven]

I just don't see the big deal here.

OK. If that changes, let's talk again.

[JaxRolo]

 

Ironically when I was coaching I never told a kid to stay on a base.  But I don't think it's showing me up.  For it to be showing me up the coach would have to be implying that he's staying there because you made a bad call.  IMO the coach is telling him to stay there because the play has not been finalized.  Big difference. 

And coaches think I make bad calls all the time

That's what I keep hearing!   

[mstaylor]

 

Scott I'm glad you are not a coach, you'd be getting ejected! lol â¤

 

Ironically when I was coaching I never told a kid to stay on a base.  But I don't think it's showing me up.  For it to be showing me up the coach would have to be implying that he's staying there because you made a bad call.  IMO the coach is telling him to stay there because the play has not been finalized.  Big difference.  

 

What if the coach thought there were only two outs and there was some confusion and he told one of his runners to stay on the base?  Is that showing me up?

 

It doesn't matter the number of outs, the runner is out period. In most every situation where a coach has told a runner to stay on a bag the tone and inflection was clearly," I think you are safe and this bozo is an idiot." 

[umpire_scott]

 

 

Scott I'm glad you are not a coach, you'd be getting ejected! lol â¤

 

Ironically when I was coaching I never told a kid to stay on a base.  But I don't think it's showing me up.  For it to be showing me up the coach would have to be implying that he's staying there because you made a bad call.  IMO the coach is telling him to stay there because the play has not been finalized.  Big difference.  

 

What if the coach thought there were only two outs and there was some confusion and he told one of his runners to stay on the base?  Is that showing me up?

 

It doesn't matter the number of outs, the runner is out period. In most every situation where a coach has told a runner to stay on a bag the tone and inflection was clearly," I think you are safe and this bozo is an idiot." 

 

 

I think on judgement calls you are probably correct, but what about the pulled foot scenario in the OP?  I would not have an issue with a coach telling his players to remain on their bases while he asks me if I can get help from my partner to see whether he saw a pulled foot.  I just don't see the benefit in getting into any sort of conversation on whether the players should leave their bases.  What if the out occurred at first base but there was also a runner on third, and the out at first would have been the last out of the inning?  Would it be inappropriate for the 3BC to tell his runner on third to stay put as well?  He wasn't technically put out.  I'd just prefer to deal with the call rather than whether the kid remained on the base on his coaches instructions.

[flastyle727]

 

 

 

Scott I'm glad you are not a coach, you'd be getting ejected! lol â¤

 

Ironically when I was coaching I never told a kid to stay on a base.  But I don't think it's showing me up.  For it to be showing me up the coach would have to be implying that he's staying there because you made a bad call.  IMO the coach is telling him to stay there because the play has not been finalized.  Big difference.  

 

What if the coach thought there were only two outs and there was some confusion and he told one of his runners to stay on the base?  Is that showing me up?

 

It doesn't matter the number of outs, the runner is out period. In most every situation where a coach has told a runner to stay on a bag the tone and inflection was clearly," I think you are safe and this bozo is an idiot." 

 

 

I think on judgement calls you are probably correct, but what about the pulled foot scenario in the OP?  I would not have an issue with a coach telling his players to remain on their bases while he asks me if I can get help from my partner to see whether he saw a pulled foot.  I just don't see the benefit in getting into any sort of conversation on whether the players should leave their bases.  What if the out occurred at first base but there was also a runner on third, and the out at first would have been the last out of the inning?  Would it be inappropriate for the 3BC to tell his runner on third to stay put as well?  He wasn't technically put out.  I'd just prefer to deal with the call rather than whether the kid remained on the base on his coaches instructions.

 

 

Your game must last HOURS...

[blue23ll]

Scott, it's all about who is in charge on the field. If you want the coaches to think they run the show, then that's your choice. It's just not mine and not most on this board's way of running a game.

[umpire_scott]

 

 

 

 

Scott I'm glad you are not a coach, you'd be getting ejected! lol â¤

 

Ironically when I was coaching I never told a kid to stay on a base.  But I don't think it's showing me up.  For it to be showing me up the coach would have to be implying that he's staying there because you made a bad call.  IMO the coach is telling him to stay there because the play has not been finalized.  Big difference.  

 

What if the coach thought there were only two outs and there was some confusion and he told one of his runners to stay on the base?  Is that showing me up?

 

It doesn't matter the number of outs, the runner is out period. In most every situation where a coach has told a runner to stay on a bag the tone and inflection was clearly," I think you are safe and this bozo is an idiot." 

 

 

I think on judgement calls you are probably correct, but what about the pulled foot scenario in the OP?  I would not have an issue with a coach telling his players to remain on their bases while he asks me if I can get help from my partner to see whether he saw a pulled foot.  I just don't see the benefit in getting into any sort of conversation on whether the players should leave their bases.  What if the out occurred at first base but there was also a runner on third, and the out at first would have been the last out of the inning?  Would it be inappropriate for the 3BC to tell his runner on third to stay put as well?  He wasn't technically put out.  I'd just prefer to deal with the call rather than whether the kid remained on the base on his coaches instructions.

 

 

Your game must last HOURS...

 

 

I'm curious why it would take more time to ignore it and less time to address it?

[flastyle727]

 

 

 

 

 

Scott I'm glad you are not a coach, you'd be getting ejected! lol â¤

 

Ironically when I was coaching I never told a kid to stay on a base.  But I don't think it's showing me up.  For it to be showing me up the coach would have to be implying that he's staying there because you made a bad call.  IMO the coach is telling him to stay there because the play has not been finalized.  Big difference.  

 

What if the coach thought there were only two outs and there was some confusion and he told one of his runners to stay on the base?  Is that showing me up?

 

It doesn't matter the number of outs, the runner is out period. In most every situation where a coach has told a runner to stay on a bag the tone and inflection was clearly," I think you are safe and this bozo is an idiot." 

 

 

I think on judgement calls you are probably correct, but what about the pulled foot scenario in the OP?  I would not have an issue with a coach telling his players to remain on their bases while he asks me if I can get help from my partner to see whether he saw a pulled foot.  I just don't see the benefit in getting into any sort of conversation on whether the players should leave their bases.  What if the out occurred at first base but there was also a runner on third, and the out at first would have been the last out of the inning?  Would it be inappropriate for the 3BC to tell his runner on third to stay put as well?  He wasn't technically put out.  I'd just prefer to deal with the call rather than whether the kid remained on the base on his coaches instructions.

 

 

Your game must last HOURS...

 

 

I'm curious why it would take more time to ignore it and less time to address it?

 

 

 

In nearly all your posts; you appease coaches. I am quite positive it takes away your credability and they discuss every call. Just my opinion of course.

[umpire_scott]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scott I'm glad you are not a coach, you'd be getting ejected! lol â¤

 

Ironically when I was coaching I never told a kid to stay on a base.  But I don't think it's showing me up.  For it to be showing me up the coach would have to be implying that he's staying there because you made a bad call.  IMO the coach is telling him to stay there because the play has not been finalized.  Big difference.  

 

What if the coach thought there were only two outs and there was some confusion and he told one of his runners to stay on the base?  Is that showing me up?

 

It doesn't matter the number of outs, the runner is out period. In most every situation where a coach has told a runner to stay on a bag the tone and inflection was clearly," I think you are safe and this bozo is an idiot." 

 

 

I think on judgement calls you are probably correct, but what about the pulled foot scenario in the OP?  I would not have an issue with a coach telling his players to remain on their bases while he asks me if I can get help from my partner to see whether he saw a pulled foot.  I just don't see the benefit in getting into any sort of conversation on whether the players should leave their bases.  What if the out occurred at first base but there was also a runner on third, and the out at first would have been the last out of the inning?  Would it be inappropriate for the 3BC to tell his runner on third to stay put as well?  He wasn't technically put out.  I'd just prefer to deal with the call rather than whether the kid remained on the base on his coaches instructions.

 

 

Your game must last HOURS...

 

 

I'm curious why it would take more time to ignore it and less time to address it?

 

In nearly all your posts; you appease coaches. I am quite positive it takes away your credability and they discuss every call. Just my opinion of course.

 

 

When you consider all the games I do there are seldom situations where appeasing a coach even comes into play.  So 90% of the games I have little to no contact with a coach at all.  In most cases where there is communication it's with a coach I have not seen before so I've never witnessed it leading to future discussions.

 

In this specific instance I would actually be prolonging the game by dealing with whether the player left the base or listened to the coach.  I'm not appeasing the coach, I'm completly ignoring the situation.  Which you have to admit takes less time then dealing with the situation.  In addition if I take the time to make sure the kid goes back to the dugout, then go to my partner, and he says "Yeah Scott he did pull his foot", now I have to call the runner(s) back out to the field, which takes additional time.

 

I understand the feeling that I'm not in control of the game by not insisting that the player go to the dugout.  I simply don't agree that in every circumstance this is being "shown up" and exhibits a "lack of control".  If I told the coach that the player needed to go back to the dugout and the coach said "no he stays until we discuss this", and I allowed that, then I would be not in control.  By ignoring it as if I never heard it or don't care, to me does nothing as far as me being in control. 

[flastyle727]

Let me be clear. I do not know you from a can of paint, you could be a retired MLB umpire with 4 World Series rings and you could be a Pony League rookie. Either way, every thread that your inolved in becomes a disconent filled dialouge. Personally, I do not care what logic or game management you apply in your games, I do care about your lack of accepting others opinions besides your own.

 

No worries, I won't reply after this, so please save your key strokes.

[JaxRolo]

Let me be clear. I do not know you from a can of paint, you could be a retired MLB umpire with 4 World Series rings and you could be a Pony League rookie. Either way, every thread that your inolved in becomes a disconent filled dialouge. Personally, I do not care what logic or game management you apply in your games, I do care about your lack of accepting others opinions besides your own. No worries, I won't reply after this, so please save your key strokes.

Agree so many disagree with him about things. Yet he always trying to come up with excuses why he is right. Also my last post here!