Overruling your partner

[cearle23]

I know that as a general rule of thumb you do not over rule your partner, they ask for help you give them the rule or interpretation of the play and then let them handle their business.  I am not high school certified myself and have no formal training so I don't want to come off more high and mighty than I am.  I spend more time than my boss should know on this site reading about mechanics, situations, and rules, I've got the case book and rule book on my phone for downtime, so I do spend a lot of time trying to better myself. I have invested in uniforms and my own plate gear to give off a professional look when I'm on the field, I take all the games from 8U to high school pretty seriously, to the point my wife may need counseling after I run down all the happenings of the games each night...

 

I worked a lot of rec league games this past spring and with it being a rec league there was not a real in depth training session given, a lot of the other umps are high school aged or younger, and many show up in shorts and hats on backwards.  I'm not trying to say that the way you dress ultimately defines you as an umpire but it's been discussed on here and other places, it's not a good first impression and invites skeptism from coaches and fans from the first pitch if you know what you are doing out there.  I always enjoy working with experienced guys and getting tips, feedback, discussing calls, etc.  I try to do the same with a younger guys that I work with if they are interested. Now that we are out of the rec season and into tournament season at our local facility, a lot of the same rec league guys are still working these games, I won't get started on how I feel about them not being in uniform, when a team has come from a far distance and shows up to the field and there is the umpire in his gym shorts and t-shirt... So here is the point of the post... is there a point when you over rule a guy that is simply there to get his money and be gone when he isn't hustling into position and is missing very obvious calls?  Granted, a uniform doesn't make you hustle or get you in position, but it does give off a better impression than walking in shorts.  I did not do it over the weekend, but had a couple of opportunities to do so, but didn't on principle of it being their call, they didn't ask for assistance, so I'm not going to overrule... I feel it reflects poorly on both of us in these situations, but wanted to get some feedback on if and when you guys would take these situations into your own hands...

 

 

[KLAH316]

You need to be more specific on the situations that you felt you should have overruled your partner.....

Not saying you should/shouldn't have, we just need more details.

[SoCal Lurker]

see 9.02©

[cearle23]

There was one very blatant force out at second base, bases loaded, one out, blooper to center so runners are hesitating to go, ball drops in, CF picks it up and throws to second.  I can see foot on the bag, I can see the catch and the runner is just starting his slide.  Guy calls him safe.

 

Second instance, runner on second stealing with 2 outs, catcher throws a strike to the bag, 3B puts the tag down for runner to slide into, guy was in C position, but hadn't moved to get a better angle or cut down the distance between him and the play.  It was a definite out that he ruled safe. 

 

Both plays hurt the same team, and while the first would not have ended the inning, they both prolonged the inning and runs were scored as a result.

[Mike Prince]

Tough to over-rule judgement calls.  Now if your partner gets a rule issue wrong it is my opinion that you interject yourself into the conversation to help him fix it.

 

In the situations you reference, you could always signal to your partner that you saw something different, and if he sees it and comes to you offer him the information on what you saw.  But it's still his call and his decision on how to use any info you offer to him.

 

Did the coaches that these calls went against ask your partner to get help on these plays?

[maven]

In short: no, you can't overrule your partner's judgment calls. You can tell him what you've got, and let him do what he will.

 

You might also reconsider your aggressive approach. You saw it one way, but he saw it another. How can you be so sure you're right? Ever had a coach be sure you missed a call when you nailed it? Most cases you shouldn't be watching what he's watching anyway.

 

Sure, working with some guys is worse than working alone. Bust your ass, learn the rules and mechanics, and move up so you don't have to work with those clowns any more. But you don't get to overrule them on the way, and "fixing" their laziness will never make you a better umpire.

[KLAH316]

There was one very blatant force out at second base, bases loaded, one out, blooper to center so runners are hesitating to go, ball drops in, CF picks it up and throws to second.  I can see foot on the bag, I can see the catch and the runner is just starting his slide.  Guy calls him safe.

 

Second instance, runner on second stealing with 2 outs, catcher throws a strike to the bag, 3B puts the tag down for runner to slide into, guy was in C position, but hadn't moved to get a better angle or cut down the distance between him and the play.  It was a definite out that he ruled safe. 

 

Both plays hurt the same team, and while the first would not have ended the inning, they both prolonged the inning and runs were scored as a result.

I am sorry, but both of these situations were your partners judgement calls and his to stand by.  They aren't yours and you did right to stay quiet and not get involved.  It's hard sometimes when you see a partner blow a call or two from your perspective, but that's how it goes. 

[cearle23]

Tough to over-rule judgement calls.  Now if your partner gets a rule issue wrong it is my opinion that you interject yourself into the conversation to help him fix it.

 

In the situations you reference, you could always signal to your partner that you saw something different, and if he sees it and comes to you offer him the information on what you saw.  But it's still his call and his decision on how to use any info you offer to him.

 

Did the coaches that these calls went against ask your partner to get help on these plays?

 

 

see 9.02©

 

In both cases, the coach came out to discuss with the BU, but he never came to me for help or interpretation, which is the reason I did not get invovled. 

[cearle23]

 

You might also reconsider your aggressive approach. You saw it one way, but he saw it another. How can you be so sure you're right? Ever had a coach be sure you missed a call when you nailed it? Most cases you shouldn't be watching what he's watching anyway.

 

 

Fair point and I'm not saying I shouldn't have been watching the same play as my partner in all cases, but the force out at second was blatant, I was watching for a catch with a tag situation on third.  I had tournament directors watching that made mention of the play later, the opposing coach referenced it after the game as being a poor call.

 

I appreciate the comment and the feedback.  Hopefully, soon enough the clowns will be a thing of the past!

[SoCal Lurker]

 

Tough to over-rule judgement calls.  Now if your partner gets a rule issue wrong it is my opinion that you interject yourself into the conversation to help him fix it.

 

In the situations you reference, you could always signal to your partner that you saw something different, and if he sees it and comes to you offer him the information on what you saw.  But it's still his call and his decision on how to use any info you offer to him.

 

Did the coaches that these calls went against ask your partner to get help on these plays?

 

 

see 9.02©

 

In both cases, the coach came out to discuss with the BU, but he never came to me for help or interpretation, which is the reason I did not get invovled. 

 

 

Then you did right.  May be a bad call, but still the way it is supposed to work.  (I won't repeat my whining from another thread here ....)

[mstaylor]

The best you can do is offer insight after the game. It is possible on the first case he wasn't thinking force and called him safe on the no tag. On the second you can explain how to close the angle. If he isn't interested in feedback there is nothing to be done.

I watched a LL district final done by two teenagers. The guy on the plate was excellent,BU horrible. He never left A for any reason, called everything from there and missed a ton. It was painful to watch. Parents were pissed,DA was too. Keep working hard, try to improve and maybe get in a position to help teach these guys.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[maven]

Keep working hard, try to improve and maybe get in a position to help teach these guys.

 

Here's the piece most often forgotten.

[Stan W.]

 

Keep working hard, try to improve and maybe get in a position to help teach these guys.

 

Here's the piece most often forgotten.

 

 

As MST and I are both trainers of umpires, I totally agree with this.........if we dont teach out these flaws, we, by default,  cause some of the grief we get as the players, coaches and fans move up and they become our problem.........

 

Like many, when I had had enough, I fled youth ball.....I wanted better played ball, better players and better partners more infiormed coaches and fans..........now, not all that is available, but you get the jist.....

 

My associations cover baseball from about the 13-14 level through elite travel, HS, legion college and adult baseball..........our umpire training program has helped us put a better product out there on the field....as we dont have any contracts with lower level ball, im not in that mix...........but at sites we do, often we get advised whrn these things happen.... big Kudos to you guys who are training umpires and doing the youth ball levels........ 

 

.

[Umpiresoftball]

Personally i had an umpire overrule me and i was not to please. I never asked for help he said it was his call and i know for sure it was mine. Runner on first Babe ruth baseball game i was between first/second the 2nd baseman makes a great diving play and i cal the runner out.  HP said his call and overrules me i was not happy camper with that umpire.

 

I tried to give the check by to the league officials as i didn't want to do the game anymore.  But they beg me to stay so i just stayed for them.

 

I also had another umpire whom overrule me but that was to speed game up and he told me right after  that he would of usually ask me first but day light was going i couldn't see the play so i made a call as they were waiting. So i understood why he did i never had an issue with him.

 

I have told new umpires i would never overrule them but they can also ask me. Now with the new umpire his name Nick young kid. He didn't make a call on his sister game (i personally don't approve of family doing there game but he was bases so it was not a bad thing) He didn't make a call so i made and out call.

 

I came to see some of his game and i gave him some pointers as well I made it easier on him as i just told him i would cover third base. I have told him to get louder but i also said i was quite when i first started.

[Jocko]

Bottom line...judgement call is his. He owns it. Rule interpretation belongs to the crew. You MUST fix that. Get together and get it right. You will get dinged on evals for allowing a misapplication of rules to stand.

[Dannytheman]

All good advice here, as usual. once again I am late to the smart party!!

[MadMax]

@cearle23 – In no way is what I'm about to convey countermand the advice of Maven, Mike_Prince, MST, Stan and Jocko. I find it more than coincidental (to me) that the guys whose advice and insight I've come to rely on as gold, have all contributed their perspectives on your OP. So I only hope that what follows will enhance or supplement their contributions... 

 

I'm much in the same boat (tell you what, I'll say "airplane", and you'll see why) as you. I have very little (comparatively) formal training and am not HS Certified. All I can count on is I have extensive experience playing baseball (15 years as a catcher) and a photographic memory. I committed a lot of "first time mistakes" when I started umpiring, and I thank God that there were people in place to succinctly correct them with me so that I committed them to memory, and don't do them again (those reading this, I still have my indicator in my right hand, and it's the one last "frowned upon" habit I'm challenged to break... cut me some slack). In my region, I'm a freelance, and a number of assignors, directors, coaches and parents know this and will contact me to umpire games because they will get my best effort to be be professional, be fair, and be adherent to the rules. There are certainly times, though, that the "other guy" who they've found or who has been assigned to that game is exactly what you describe – a rec league guy, an old stubborn coot, or a vivid green rookie. Thing is, it's like climbing into a warplane – one of you is the pilot, one of you is the gunner. Sure, the pilot can fly the plane deftly, but if the gunner fails, you're going to get your a$$ shot off and down in flames; the gunner might be a crack shot, and shred every attacker, but the pilot fails and you plow into a hillside. You should actually adopt this mentality when you pull up into the parking lot for a game.

 

So, the Pre-Game Conference is going to be your best tool. You don't want to be overbearing and a powermonger, but instead, you'll find out pretty quick what level of competency your partner has. Granted, there are some guys who are just plain unreachable, unteachable, or uncooperative. There is the occasional weasel that looks the part, and pre-game conferences the part, but when you get on the field is a steaming turd (like the guy I had at a tournament last month). Briefly discuss responsibilities and expectations. If you've got the green rookie, find out their "baseball experience", and relate to that! Use that as a starting point... If they played high school ball pretty seriously, remind them of how important it is to be in an optimum position, to follow the ball and to anticipate situations, and then translate that into being an umpire.

 

Bring with you at least 1 spare shirt that matches one of your shirts that you typically wear, and 1 plain adjustable hat to match. My default favorite is grey or black – I have 2 greys and 2 blacks that I can loan out to a guy in a pinch. I also have one adjustable plain black hat, just in case. I also have no hesitation on tossing him one of my jackets (a jacket will cover just about anything, and a navy w/ red trim jacket will coordinate with half of the shirt colors – black w/ white trim jacket will coordinate with the other half).

 

From the sound of things, you are usually the PU... So at the Plate Meeting, take control. Be direct, be succinct, and convey to the coaches that you (as an umpire team) will give best effort, and that you are approachable (I use this term with caution, as there are numerous other opinions from the umpires here as to what expectations to set at Plate Meeting). Once you've had your say, ask if your partner has anything to contribute (most don't, if you've done a thorough job)... This at least reinforces that you are a team in this. Even if you're not the PU, wait for the PU to finish talking, and fill in anything he has missed. I have found on several occasions as the BU that the PU and the coaches defer to me to complete (and sometimes conduct!) the Plate Meeting because of the impression I've conveyed in my appearance and professionalism.

 

Once play is underway, the only tool you have left is between-half-inning discussions. Do so! Indicate that you should meet on the 1BL and (briefly) talk out what's just transpired. If you notice that he's riveted to A, remind him that with a runner on, he needs to be at B. If it looks like he gets confused easy, or is overthinking it, perhaps he should stay at B (that's my _opinion_ when dealing with a rookie during a game... I'd rather have him in B the whole game, where he's got at least an angle to see everything, than stuck at A). Remind him of responsibilities he has, or, if a bang-bang play just happened, discuss what he did right, what he needs to be aware of, etc.

 

If and when (it's going to happen) he makes a "wrong" call, don't overrule him. Put yourself in the best position to deal with it, and move on. If a coach comes out to discuss (coach _should_ be coming out to the umpire that made the call), reinforce that the call is your partner's. If any other coaches come out to discuss, cut it off at the pass... don't let them. Reinforce that only one coach is going to be discussing, that's it. If your partner wants to include you in the discussion, do so, but if you're going to join the discussion, go with the integrity of the rules, and the protection of you as an umpire _team_ in mind. If your partner has a rule interpretation wrong, then you correct it... but if it's a judgement call, then live with it and try to directly and diplomatically wrap the discussion up so as to get back to the game (@Jocko mentioned this).

 

Post-game, avoid the temptation to apologize to any/the coaches, or discuss anything with them. Leave the field as an umpire team, and calmly discuss what occurred. If there's nothing to discuss (the guy is unreachable, unteachable or uncooperative), then my advice is to shake hands one last time, say "Have a nice afternoon ____________" (if you haven't gotten his name, get it now... commit it to memory, so you can give your assignor or director your feedback), and drive away. On to the next game!

[BigUmp56]

During a game you shouldn't ever need to get together, ESPECIALLY after a banger. You're fooling yourself if you think that trying to teach umpiring 101 on a half inning accomplishes much. If they didn't know it already, the coaches will know for sure that one or both of you is incompetent. Save it for the dressing room.

Also, you should keep your plate conference short and to the point. The only expectations you need to convey to the coaches are what there might be for unique ground rules, and that the players need to take the field properly and legally equipped. It wreaks of uncertainty and incompetence when umpires droll on about the strike zone, the pace of the game, proper decorum for questioning a call, etc.

I really like much of what you've written, but these two pieces of advice you gave needed to be addressed.

Tim

[mtnump]

Tim,

 

I agree that it should not be done regularly, but there are times when it is necessary.

 

Early in the HS season my partner showed up to a dh and I asked him how many games he had done this year.  This was to be his first set.  I asked him how long he had been umpiring and he said this was his first year.   UGH!!!  I gave him the bases for the first game...You can't pregame everything, so at the end of each full inning we met and talked about positioning, timing, and some other little things based on plays that had happened.  We got through it...it was a little rough around the edges, but...The point is this guy had been to 3 meetings and that was it.  We were short guys on a Saturday full of doubleheaders so he got assigned.  I made him better with a little coaching and kept us from looking inept as a team of umpires by trying to stay on top of things so at least if he did something wrong once, I could head him off at the pass and not let it become glaringly obvious that he had no clue.  He did at least have a crisp new uniform and pulled his plate gear out of the plastic before the second game.

 

I love getting to work with a guy that I have worked with a lot and you just know he is going to be where he is supposed to be, but I live in a rural area and we don't have the luxury of numbers.   Not everyone has that luxury on a regular basis. You get what you get and you don't throw a fit...You are both out there for the afternoon, so instead of being pissed you have to make the best of it.