Appeal Question

[umpire_scott]

So this requires a little bit of back story, although it's not needed for the appeal question.  I worked 5 games on Saturday and 4 games on Sunday with an umpire I had never worked with before.  He was annoying as all get out, and I half jokingly told the TD to never schedule me with this guy for more than one day at a time.  He just wouldn't shut up.  He had something to interject at every one of my plate meetings with the coach.  And he bragged on and on about how he "gets games over quickly" with his large strike zone.  I know his whole freaking life story including his sick wife at home and how he's saving up his money to take a trip to Florida and then Las Vegas.  I also took a direct hit in the chest on a foul ball off about a 75 MPH fastball and I reacted; taking my mask off and taking a minute to catch my breath and get a drink of water.  Two days later I still have a knot on my upper sternum.  Later when he was behind the plate he had a ball bounce of the ground hit the catcher and then hit him.  He showed me the red mark on his neck between innings and said "when I get hit you don't even know it, because I don't react".  He was a nice enough guy, but on Saturday our first three games all started the last inning with 3-5 minutes left on the clock and the VT winning in two of them and the game tied in the other.  So our 4th game started 1/2 hour behind schedule.  My partner was noticeably perturbed that we were behind and determined to "catch us up".  His zone in the first game was enormous at the beginning outside pitches that I could see were about 10 inches off the plate being called strikes.  Then later he was balling a few pitches that were 2-3 inches closer.  On Sunday he was in a great mood because his second game on the dish (our second game of the day) we had a 10-0 4 inning game that lasted about 1 hour.  We changed out and were ready to go very early for the next game.  One of the teams however was not really until about 5 minutes before game time.  Well the game went to the bottom of the 6th with the HT up 5-2 with a runner on second.  There is a minute left on the clock and the HT attempts a steal of third (I have no idea why regardless of time).  He's out so we have to start the 7th inning.  I notice my partner is aghast.  Then in the top of the 7th the VT scores 3 runs and leaves the bases loaded.  So it was a long half inning.  The HT ends up scoring with two outs in the 7th to win the game, but we are now a little behind schedule again.  So the next game starts and we have the winning team from the previous game against a new team.  The winning team is noticeably bigger, and the other teams pitcher is throwing medicine balls.  I figure, and I assume my partner does as well, that this has the makings of a quickie.  Well the "better team" wins the toss and is home.  But their pitcher is all over the place and they are out on the front foot the entire game against the medicine ball thrower.  We go to the 6th tied at 1.  Bottom of the 6th with less than 2 outs and we have a fairly close play at first, but he is out (no doubt in my mind as I'm following the runner up the line.  Shockingly my partner calls him safe.  I think he called him safe because he wanted them to score and get the game over with.  He was pretty good with calls prior to that and was really in good position.  The VT dugouts starts up with the "that's terrible" and "you've got to be kidding me".  The VT coach calls out to me can he appeal that to you?

 

Now obviously I'm not going to have anything for my partner as it's a judgement call.  But my question is would you say that to the coach or refer the coach to your partner immediately? 

 

Sorry for the rant, in addition to the question, but I had a really enjoyable weekend with some great games and it was partly ruined by a partner who was more interested in how long the games lasted than how they went.

[Mike Prince]

Tell the coach it's your partner's call, he will have to talk to him.

 

And why wouldn't you have anything for your partner?  You said you had no doubt and were trailing him up the line.  If your partner comes to you, you tell him what you had on the play.  In the end it is his call and his decision, all you can do is give him any information you have on the play.

[HeadHunterLA]

So this requires a little bit of back story, although it's not needed for the appeal question.  I worked 5 games on Saturday and 4 games on Sunday with an umpire I had never worked with before.  He was annoying as all get out, and I half jokingly told the TD to never schedule me with this guy for more than one day at a time.  He just wouldn't shut up.  He had something to interject at every one of my plate meetings with the coach.  And he bragged on and on about how he "gets games over quickly" with his large strike zone.  I know his whole freaking life story including his sick wife at home and how he's saving up his money to take a trip to Florida and then Las Vegas.  I also took a direct hit in the chest on a foul ball off about a 75 MPH fastball and I reacted; taking my mask off and taking a minute to catch my breath and get a drink of water.  Two days later I still have a knot on my upper sternum.  Later when he was behind the plate he had a ball bounce of the ground hit the catcher and then hit him.  He showed me the red mark on his neck between innings and said "when I get hit you don't even know it, because I don't react".  He was a nice enough guy, but on Saturday our first three games all started the last inning with 3-5 minutes left on the clock and the VT winning in two of them and the game tied in the other.  So our 4th game started 1/2 hour behind schedule.  My partner was noticeably perturbed that we were behind and determined to "catch us up".  His zone in the first game was enormous at the beginning outside pitches that I could see were about 10 inches off the plate being called strikes.  Then later he was balling a few pitches that were 2-3 inches closer.  On Sunday he was in a great mood because his second game on the dish (our second game of the day) we had a 10-0 4 inning game that lasted about 1 hour.  We changed out and were ready to go very early for the next game.  One of the teams however was not really until about 5 minutes before game time.  Well the game went to the bottom of the 6th with the HT up 5-2 with a runner on second.  There is a minute left on the clock and the HT attempts a steal of third (I have no idea why regardless of time).  He's out so we have to start the 7th inning.  I notice my partner is aghast.  Then in the top of the 7th the VT scores 3 runs and leaves the bases loaded.  So it was a long half inning.  The HT ends up scoring with two outs in the 7th to win the game, but we are now a little behind schedule again.  So the next game starts and we have the winning team from the previous game against a new team.  The winning team is noticeably bigger, and the other teams pitcher is throwing medicine balls.  I figure, and I assume my partner does as well, that this has the makings of a quickie.  Well the "better team" wins the toss and is home.  But their pitcher is all over the place and they are out on the front foot the entire game against the medicine ball thrower.  We go to the 6th tied at 1.  Bottom of the 6th with less than 2 outs and we have a fairly close play at first, but he is out (no doubt in my mind as I'm following the runner up the line.  Shockingly my partner calls him safe.  I think he called him safe because he wanted them to score and get the game over with.  He was pretty good with calls prior to that and was really in good position.  The VT dugouts starts up with the "that's terrible" and "you've got to be kidding me".  The VT coach calls out to me can he appeal that to you?

 

Now obviously I'm not going to have anything for my partner as it's a judgement call.  But my question is would you say that to the coach or refer the coach to your partner immediately? 

 

Sorry for the rant, in addition to the question, but I had a really enjoyable weekend with some great games and it was partly ruined by a partner who was more interested in how long the games lasted than how they went.

I might give a little shake of the head to the VT coach and go about my business.

[maven]

Boy that's a lot of text, most of which probably belongs in the "War Stories" forum.

 

Is this your question:

 

Can the defense appeal BU's judgment call at 1B to the PU?

 

Answer: no.

 

Can the defense ask BU to get help?

 

Answer: sure, but he can say no, and PU has no business injecting himself into another guy's call, even if the other guy's a crap umpire, jackass, legally blind, etc. etc.

[umpire_scott]

Boy that's a lot of text, most of which probably belongs in the "War Stories" forum.

 

Is this your question:

 

Can the defense appeal BU's judgment call at 1B to the PU?

 

Answer: no.

 

Can the defense ask BU to get help?

 

Answer: sure, but he can say no, and PU has no business injecting himself into another guy's call, even if the other guy's a crap umpire, jackass, legally blind, etc. etc.

 

Agreed.  I apologized for the rant.

 

When the coach asked me if my partner could ask me for help I told him that he needed to go to my partner.  So the coach did.  My partner said it was a judgement call.  Which was accurate.  There was nothing that I had other than he was obviously safe and my partner kicked the call.  There was nothing there that I saw that he couldn't.  My question was would it have been better for me to just tell the coach that's his call and it's a judgement call.  Or since my partner made the original call should I just send the coach to him and let him tell him?

[umpire_scott]

Tell the coach it's your partner's call, he will have to talk to him.

 

And why wouldn't you have anything for your partner?  You said you had no doubt and were trailing him up the line.  If your partner comes to you, you tell him what you had on the play.  In the end it is his call and his decision, all you can do is give him any information you have on the play.

 

I honestly think that's a bad idea.  On a pulled foot, swipe tag, or something of that nature I may have seen something that I my partner did not see.  That's easily explainable to the coach of the other team.  Try explaining to the other coach that you changed a call because your partner judged it differently running down the line than you did in perfect position.

[Mike Prince]

 

Tell the coach it's your partner's call, he will have to talk to him.

 

And why wouldn't you have anything for your partner?  You said you had no doubt and were trailing him up the line.  If your partner comes to you, you tell him what you had on the play.  In the end it is his call and his decision, all you can do is give him any information you have on the play.

 

I honestly think that's a bad idea.  On a pulled foot, swipe tag, or something of that nature I may have seen something that I my partner did not see.  That's easily explainable to the coach of the other team.  Try explaining to the other coach that you changed a call because your partner judged it differently running down the line than you did in perfect position.

 

 

OK, I'm not really interested in extending another one of your posts into a multi-pager, so do me the favor of answering a couple of questions (preferably in the exact words you would use in the game) directly referencing your OP:

 

Q1:  Coach - "Scott, can I get some help here?"

 

Q2:  Partner - "Scott, what did you have on that play, I'm not sure I had a great angle on it and I saw you had a good look?"

[umpire_scott]

 

 

Tell the coach it's your partner's call, he will have to talk to him.

 

And why wouldn't you have anything for your partner?  You said you had no doubt and were trailing him up the line.  If your partner comes to you, you tell him what you had on the play.  In the end it is his call and his decision, all you can do is give him any information you have on the play.

 

I honestly think that's a bad idea.  On a pulled foot, swipe tag, or something of that nature I may have seen something that I my partner did not see.  That's easily explainable to the coach of the other team.  Try explaining to the other coach that you changed a call because your partner judged it differently running down the line than you did in perfect position.

 

 

OK, I'm not really interested in extending another one of your posts into a multi-pager, so do me the favor of answering a couple of questions (preferably in the exact words you would use in the game) directly referencing your OP:

 

Q1:  Coach - "Scott, can I get some help here?"

 

Q2:  Partner - "Scott, what did you have on that play, I'm not sure I had a great angle on it and I saw you had a good look?"

 

 

Certainly.

 

Q1. "Coach that was my partner's call you'll have to talk to him."

 

Q2.  "In my opinion he was out. But that's your call, and you were in position to make it.  If you want to change that call you can, but I'm sure the other coach is going to want an explanation."

 

He was on "A" on a ground ball, exactly what would keep him from getting a good angle?  This was not mentioned but it was a ground ball to the pitcher and he fumbled it a bit making it closer, but still not that close.

[BigUmp56]

I don't think I would lead him one way or the other, Scott. If he comes to you he obviously has a doubt in his mind about the call. Tell him what you saw and then let him make the decision to change his call or not, without any extraneous information.

 

Tim.

[umpire_scott]

Back to my original question though:

 

I am of the belief that what Maven said is accurate.  This play was not subject to appeal because all I saw was the ball beating the runner, and my partner apparently saw the runner beating the ball.

 

So in a case like this when the coach first asked me "can he get help from you?".  I could have just said "no, it's a judgement call".  Or I could do what I did and said "you'll have to talk to my partner it's his call". 

[mstaylor]

 

 I could have just said "no, it's a judgement call". 

 

Stick with that. If he does come to you tell him you don't have a pulled foot and walk away. 

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Off of the subject a little, but how do you " Two days later I still have a knot on my upper sternum." ? What kind of chest protector are you wearing ? It sounds as if you could benefit from a hard shell.

[Jimurray]

Off of the subject a little, but how do you " Two days later I still have a knot on my upper sternum." ? What kind of chest protector are you wearing ? It sounds as if you could benefit from a hard shell.

That's what I want to know. 75 to the middle of the chest protector. Get rid of it, and the people you are calling with.

[umpire_scott]

Off of the subject a little, but how do you " Two days later I still have a knot on my upper sternum." ? What kind of chest protector are you wearing ? It sounds as if you could benefit from a hard shell.

 

What can I say I'm both cheap and poor.  The chest protector I have is an old Gerry Davis protector that I bought used about 4-5 years ago I believe.  I could definitely use a hard shell, I just can't afford right now to upgrade my equipment.  Maybe if I had not lost over $1000 in rain-outs for June I would have upgraded.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

 

Off of the subject a little, but how do you " Two days later I still have a knot on my upper sternum." ? What kind of chest protector are you wearing ? It sounds as if you could benefit from a hard shell.

 

What can I say I'm both cheap and poor.  The chest protector I have is an old Gerry Davis protector that I bought used about 4-5 years ago I believe.  I could definitely use a hard shell, I just can't afford right now to upgrade my equipment.  Maybe if I had not lost over $1000 in rain-outs for June I would have upgraded.

 

 

 Your financial situation is none of my business, but I would tell you this: The expense of an ER visit, and the possible loss of income from injury can take a much bigger bite out of your finances than the cost of good equipment. Make a plan to set aside a little money from each game fee to buy yourself a quality hard-shell CP. Perhaps someone you know has one that you could purchase at a good price. Good equipment can also make you a better umpire, due to you not thinking about being injured by a foul ball, or a pitch that F2 might miss. Just my $.02.

[mstaylor]

PM sent for hard shell