Forced Balk?

[TNCoach]

FED, County Elementary/Middle School Tournament.  This is the league I used to coach in (I have told horror stories about it because of the use of non-associaton umpires). 

 

I think a call was pretty well botched the other night.  Just wanted to run it by and make sure.

 

Visitors down 1 in top of last inning.  R3.  R3 begins running back and forth, trying to cause a balk.  3BC gets involved yelling, getting F1's attention, forcing a balk.  PU calls balk and tying run scores.

 

Tie game in bottom of inning, 2 outs.  R3.  3BC of home team starts yelling "Balk!"  F1, thinking he has balked becomes frustrated and spikes the ball and his glove.  Balk  called.  Game over.

 

Thoughts?

 

[UmpJM]

Horrible.

 

Umpire should have immediately dumped 3BC in top of the last, regardless of rule code. (FED 3-3-1o, g3, g4)

 

JM

[KLAH316]

3-3-1o, may not "call time or use any command or commit any act for the purpose of causing a balk"

 

Penalty:  The umpire shall eject the offender from the game.

 

BOOM!

[BalkHawk]

Horse manure.

[TNCoach]

Two mothers from the schools had to be separated in the crowd for fighting during this. The new coach was talking to me about it at lunch the next day. He was telling me he had to help separate the fight. He said it was a legit balk. I asked him to explain what happened. I told him it was not because a coach cannot force a balk. I actually got my book and showed him 3-3-1-o. I told him he may want to address it with the umpire before the game started.

 

Now, let me ask this. If it were a base runner, you could legitimately get him for forcing a balk with his words, but he would be allowed to force a balk with his moving on the base paths. But he would not be allowed to do something like run at the pitcher... Is that correct?

 

 

(I wouldn't have blamed the pitcher and F5 for a pickoff at 3B that the F5 missed)

[KLAH316]

The rule says anyone!

[UmpJM]

TNCoach,

 

Seems like you've got a good grasp of the principle.

 

There are a number of perfectly legal ways for a runner to attempt to "disrupt" the pitcher - such as repeated feints to advance, hand clapping, and the such. They can't "yell" at the pitcher or make any comments about him or engage in any "intimidating" behavior (all solely umpire judgment). But he is allowed to engage in "physical dekes" to distract and disrupt the pitcher.

 

JM

[TNCoach]

An example would be one I employed. F1 mistakenly (or possibly not mistakenly) steps on the rubber in the wind. R3 breaks for home early, forcing the pitcher to either start his legal motion (which probably ends up with a steal of home) or to step off (a good chance the pitcher steps off with the wrong foot). That is legal.

 

An example that might be illegal would be the same, but the R3 yells at the pitcher, "Balk!... Better get me..." (or something like that-- may be a stretch...)

[UmpJM]

By George, I think you've got it!

 

JM

[Bruce Parker]

I would interpret the intentional clapping to cause a balk as a violation of "commit any act" (3-3-1o) "for the purpose of causing a balk. Am I wrong?

[maven]

I would interpret the intentional clapping to cause a balk as a violation of "commit any act" (3-3-1o) "for the purpose of causing a balk. Am I wrong?

 

That's incorrect. By your reasoning, you'd have to rule feinting a steal illegal because it's an act for the purpose of causing a balk.

 

The standard is higher than what you're envisioning: it has to be something completely inappropriate, such as shouting "Balk!" Clapping is permitted, however annoying and distracting.

[dumbdumb]

An example would be one I employed. F1 mistakenly (or possibly not mistakenly) steps on the rubber in the wind. R3 breaks for home early, forcing the pitcher to either start his legal motion (which probably ends up with a steal of home) or to step off (a good chance the pitcher steps off with the wrong foot). That is legal.

 

An example that might be illegal would be the same, but the R3 yells at the pitcher, "Balk!... Better get me..." (or something like that-- may be a stretch...)

Why do we even have to go there with you coaches (not necessarily you TN if you do not subscribe to this type of coaching). Why don't you guys just play the game. Why do you try and cheat to make a player balk?? What is this showing and teaching our kids about life. Squeaky wheel gets the oil, I only want an unfair advantage, only the little people pay taxes, win any way you can as long as you can get away with it(Durocher), nice guys finish last. Do you use this moment to teach your kids that this is not how you will coach and why.

 

What is it with you guys????? Guess you guys all feel so great and good about yourselves and can pump out your chest's and talk about what great coaches you are and what great examples to the kids you are when you do these type of things, and what a wimp and bad coach and loser the other coach is because he refuses to use this type tactic to win a game. It's all about winning in life. You are either a winner or a loser. Winner's do what I did, loser's just lose.

 

I guess you go home feeling proud of yourselves. I hope you don't mind that IMHO coaches like this are not a role model to me. Guess that makes me a loser.

[TNCoach]

The one thing I said that I do is this.  My last season coaching, in about 20 games, we stole home 5 times in straight steals.  We did it if the pitcher was a lefty or if the pitcher was going from the wind-up.  We didn't do it every time, but we did it at times. 

 

I try to teach my pitchers not to go from the wind-up with runners on -- ever.

 

We have before, and while we never had home stolen on us, we did have times when my pitchers would go to the wind with runners on 3rd.  There were a few times this allowed a team to get a good jump and get a suicide squeeze in on us.

[mstaylor]

Hand clapping is annoying but not illegal. That game would have ended with two asst coaches running the team. Also, if the coach yells balk and it doesn't cause a balk, that coach is getting a very stern warning from me. 

[dumbdumb]

The one thing I said that I do is this.  My last season coaching, in about 20 games, we stole home 5 times in straight steals.  We did it if the pitcher was a lefty or if the pitcher was going from the wind-up.  We didn't do it every time, but we did it at times. 

 

I try to teach my pitchers not to go from the wind-up with runners on -- ever.

 

We have before, and while we never had home stolen on us, we did have times when my pitchers would go to the wind with runners on 3rd.  There were a few times this allowed a team to get a good jump and get a suicide squeeze in on us.

 

Oops. I made my comment under the wrong post #8 of yours rather than Post #1

 

Post #8 first paragraph is good solid baseball. The 3 paragraphs here #13 are all good solid baseball you are playing. Nothing was wrong with stealing home with a left-hander throwing from a windup. Teaching your players to pitch from the set position rather than the windup with runners on third is good coaching.

 

Here is the paragraph from your post #1 that I want you to expound on and brought on my original comments and ire.

 

"Visitors down 1 in top of last inning.  R3.  R3 begins running back and forth, trying to cause a balk.  3BC gets involved yelling, getting F1's attention, forcing a balk.  PU calls balk and tying run scores.

 

Tie game in bottom of inning, 2 outs.  R3.  3BC of home team starts yelling "Balk!"  F1, thinking he has balked becomes frustrated and spikes the ball and his glove.  Balk  called.  Game over.

 

Why do you (not you personally but so many of you guys do crap like this) guys do this??????? Don't hold back, this is not the time to give the fraternity of the coaches answer to my question.

[TNCoach]

Some coaches make it about themselves rather than letting the game be the game. They also let it become about themselves rather than the kids.

 

I would guess that they also think that they can't win with the hand they were dealt, so they have to attempt to create other influences to increase their chances. Notice, I did not say that would be my thinking.

 

Any time I argued a call or did anything, it wasn't about me. It was about the game fand the kids.

[umpire_scott]

I concur with dumbdumb (that doesn't sound right, but in this case it's true).  A few situations I remember from coaching basketball that just made me cringe.

 

#1 - Middle school basketball coach told me of a time when his team was down by a point with under 5 seconds to go in the district championship game.  Team that is up one is inbounding the ball.  During the time out the coach instructs one of his players to do something to incite a particular player on the other team that has a reputation as a hothead.  They go out to resume play and player says something to the hothead who takes a swing at the kid.  Referee T's up the hot head.  Two free-throws and the team that was down one wins the district championship.  When the kid came off the court he was so proud that he wanted to tell the coach what he said.  The coach put his hand up and said "don't say a word, it never happened".  To this day he does not know what the kid said to to the other kid.

 

#2 - I'm coaching in the district playoffs for middle school boys basketball.  We are playing the #1 seed (we are a #5 I believe).  We hang tough for a while, but the #1 seed opens up on us late in the game.  With about a minute left they are up 17.  We go to hoop and get foul #5 on one of their players.  So the coach has to substitute him out.  By rule he has 1 minute to make the substitution.  This douchebag, takes a kid off the bench and walks over to the scorers table with him talking to him the whole way saying "I don't really have anything to say to you, but I have a minute to make this substitution so just pretend like you are listening".  He is saying this loud enough for the fans and me, the opposing coach, to hear him.  He's clearly just showing off the fact that he's aware of this rule regarding substitutions.  I look at him and say "coach, look at the scoreboard, there's a minute left, really?".  He reiterates that he has a minute to make the substitution.

 

Coaches like this are part of what is wrong with youth sports.