F2 outside the box at Time Of Pitch

[calablue]

Under OBR, must F2 be within the lines of the catchers box until F1 releases the ball (as a pitch) at all times or are there any circumstances where it is legal for F2 to be outside the box at the TOP?  What I am trying to find out is if there is a penalty for F2 not being in the catchers box when F1 releases the ball when it is NOT an intentional walk of the batter.  If this is never legal, then what would be the penalty without runners on base.  Illegal pitch....therefore a ball??  

[noumpere]

Most would say its legal except during the intentional walk that you mentioned.  But there was that one incident in Atlanta a few (or 10) years ago.

 

surely looking for it or even calling it at the level most of us do would be very rare unless the catcher is way outside the box.

[scrounge]

The TOP isn't when the ball is released, it's when F1 makes a motion that commits him to pitch. For example, stepping back with the free foot in the windup.

[pnewton]

4.03 a

 

 

The catcher shall station himself directly back of the plate. He may leave his position at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher’s box until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand. 

PENALTY: Balk.

 

I know this actually isn't all that clear but the inference is that he can leave his space as long as it isn't during an intentional walk.

[scrounge]

Ah, missed the OBR reference and I stand corrected. Almost all our games are FED and had that in my head.

[calablue]

noumpere,

I don't look for this, but I had it occur twice this week in different games, different age groups, and they were both quite obvious.  Both times F2 was set up at least 18" outside the catchers box at the time F1 released the ball. 1st in a 12U game with R2,R3, No IBB, no pitchout.(I stayed behind the plate).  Pitch came across inner portion of the plate and F2 had to lunge across to catch it.  I fully expected this particular OC to come apart at the seams about F2s position but I guess he was to preoccupied barking about how I could call a strike when the catcher had to dive across the plate to catch the ball!  (It was definitely in the strike zone.)

Then in a 15U game, with R1, F2 set up out there for a pitchout.  R1 acquired 2B anyway but afterward I informed F2 that if he did it again I would call a balk.  I am not sure that would have been a correct call, which is my reason for starting this thread.  4.03a seems vague to me because of the mentioning of the except for an IBB situation. 

[calablue]

The TOP isn't when the ball is released, it's when F1 makes a motion that commits him to pitch. For example, stepping back with the free foot in the windup.

I stand corrected.  I only used that term because it was easier than repeating "released the ball".

When F1 releases the ball is what I mean throughout the post

[noumpere]

If they go out that far pull them back in.  Literally depending on the age.

[calablue]

If they go out that far pull them back in.  Literally depending on the age.

My thought exactly from now on.  These two instances caught me off guard

[jmpnjmy]

Yeah, no penalty, except for IBB.

 

If it's not illegal then....

[calablue]

Yeah, no penalty, except for IBB.

 

If it's not illegal then....

I understand that if it is not illegal then it is allowed.  However, at the bottom of 4.03a are the words...Penalty: Balk.

I see nothing there that says the penalty applies to the IBB situation only.  Perhaps you could enlighten me as to where I can find a casebook citing or approved ruling that backs up your statement.  I find it hard to believe that a catcher would be allowed to stand outside the catchers box to receive a pitchout.  If he could, what could stop him from giving IBB  by taking 4 pitchouts in a row (while standing 3 feet outside the box) and throwing the ball to F5 each time in a non serious attempt to pick off R3.

[noumpere]

Yeah, no penalty, except for IBB.

 

If it's not illegal then....

I understand that if it is not illegal then it is allowed.  However, at the bottom of 4.03a are the words...Penalty: Balk.

I see nothing there that says the penalty applies to the IBB situation only.  Perhaps you could enlighten me as to where I can find a casebook citing or approved ruling that backs up your statement.  I find it hard to believe that a catcher would be allowed to stand outside the catchers box to receive a pitchout.  If he could, what could stop him from giving IBB  by taking 4 pitchouts in a row (while standing 3 feet outside the box) and throwing the ball to F5 each time in a non serious attempt to pick off R3.

The rule clearly states "

He may leave his position

 

at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is being

 

given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the

 

lines of the catcher’s box until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand.

 

So the penalty is applied only on an IBB.

[calablue]

 

Yeah, no penalty, except for IBB.

 

If it's not illegal then....

I understand that if it is not illegal then it is allowed.  However, at the bottom of 4.03a are the words...Penalty: Balk.

I see nothing there that says the penalty applies to the IBB situation only.  Perhaps you could enlighten me as to where I can find a casebook citing or approved ruling that backs up your statement.  I find it hard to believe that a catcher would be allowed to stand outside the catchers box to receive a pitchout.  If he could, what could stop him from giving IBB  by taking 4 pitchouts in a row (while standing 3 feet outside the box) and throwing the ball to F5 each time in a non serious attempt to pick off R3.

The rule clearly states "

He may leave his position

 

at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is being

 

given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the

 

lines of the catcher’s box until the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand.

 

So the penalty is applied only on an IBB.

I have read the rule and have it available for re-reading at any time, so re-printing and adding bold print etc. doesn't convince me that your opinion is a correct interpretation.  I asked for an A.R. or casebook.   BECAUSE....the 1st sentence of 4.03a states: " The catcher shall station himself directly back of the plate."  Shall is a requirement not a request or suggestion therefore he has violated a portion of the rule at this point if he sets up outside his box.  And, "to catch a pitch" would require that the ball already have been released by F1 because it is not a "pitch" until F1 has delivered the ball to the batter, so if F2 is outside his box prior to  F1s delivery,he has violated another part of the rule.  AND AGAIN,  I ask for some approved ruling or casebook that addresses this issue because I see nothing in this section that limits the penalty to the IBB situation only. 

[RC@54OUTS]

On a IBB the catcher may leave his box before the ball is released. Otherwise he must stay in the box with both feet fully in the box until the ball is released. We have all had 12u and 13u catchers set up way outside for a pitch. I mean like in the opposite box. They are taught this junk by coaches thinking they spot can their pitches. That's when the pitcher busts one inside right at your head. Soooo you can tell your catcher that there aren't any strikes out there or call a catcher's balk. It's self preservation. Think about this one. High school varsity game. Big stud lefty, rh batter and left handed catcher sets up way outside. That's a long way to come across and catch that inside heater that "Got away".

[pnewton]

The word "except" seems important here, it separates the case of an IBB from everything else.  If the IBB is the exception and in that exception F2 must keep both feet in the box until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand doesn't that imply that they don't have to keep both feet in the box when it isn't an IBB?

[BalkHawk]

Don't apply the penalty until F2 refuses to cooperate. Just tell him to start from within the box, same as the batter.

 

Disclaimer: this post has nothing to do with "rules" FED or OBR.

[calablue]

The word "except" seems important here, it separates the case of an IBB from everything else.  If the IBB is the exception and in that exception F2 must keep both feet in the box until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand doesn't that imply that they don't have to keep both feet in the box when it isn't an IBB?

I have considered this. And while it may imply that he doesn't have to keep both feet in the box, it certainly doesn't imply that he can have both feet outside the box.  (which is the situation I am refering to.)  (Twice I have seen it and both times both F2s feet were entirely outside the box by at least 18".)

[calablue]

OK, 8.05l states that in the IBB situation this would be a balk but makes no mention of any of the other situations I was asking about.

So the answer was right there in the book for me to find.  Thanks for all the input. I guess it is to be treated like F1 not being on fair territory while holding a runner on....let it go unless someone gripes, then tell him he can't do that.  I bow my head and leave in shame for not knowing this. 

[calablue]

On a IBB the catcher may leave his box before the ball is released. Otherwise he must stay in the box with both feet fully in the box until the ball is released. We have all had 12u and 13u catchers set up way outside for a pitch. I mean like in the opposite box. They are taught this junk by coaches thinking they spot can their pitches. That's when the pitcher busts one inside right at your head. Soooo you can tell your catcher that there aren't any strikes out there or call a catcher's balk. It's self preservation. Think about this one. High school varsity game. Big stud lefty, rh batter and left handed catcher sets up way outside. That's a long way to come across and catch that inside heater that "Got away".

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!   Balk on IBB

[umpschool]

The rulebook requires that the catcher remain directly behind home, but not necessarily within the lines of the catcher's box (except with an intentional base on balls). There is no penalty whatsoever for a catcher being outside of the box during a pitch. If, in the umpire's judgment, the catcher leaves his position from directly behind home plate, he may instruct him to return. If he refuses to comply, he can be ejected for ignoring your warning.

[UMP45]

 

The rulebook requires that the catcher remain directly behind home, but not necessarily within the lines of the catcher's box (except with an intentional base on balls). There is no penalty whatsoever for a catcher being outside of the box during a pitch. If, in the umpire's judgment, the catcher leaves his position from directly behind home plate, he may instruct him to return. If he refuses to comply, he can be ejected for ignoring your warning.

Thank you. This is also a good time to do some "preventive officiating".

[calablue]

The rulebook requires that the catcher remain directly behind home, but not necessarily within the lines of the catcher's box (except with an intentional base on balls). There is no penalty whatsoever for a catcher being outside of the box during a pitch. If, in the umpire's judgment, the catcher leaves his position from directly behind home plate, he may instruct him to return. If he refuses to comply, he can be ejected for ignoring your warning.

Thank you, this makes sense to me.