Steal of home/balk?

[yawetag]

OK - correct thread! Jaksa Roder has the following case in Ch14: "However, it is not catcher's interference if the batter.... (5) completey gives up his opportunity to swing or bat at a pitch. EG: R3, stealing. The batter takes two or three steps backward during the pitch. Catcher's interference is no longer possible.so it's either a balk (on F1) or nothing, per J/R. I'm still in the Balk camp. If F1 delivers home withouut disengaging, it's a pitch. Period. And since KC verified that by his motion it was an attempt to retire the runner and not a legal pitch, I'm balking him. Falls back to an earlier ppost:

1. Step to a base

2. Disengage

3. Pitch

I still don't see a balk. How can you know it's not just a bad pitch?

If he's on the rubber it's a pitch.

 

Depending on set/windup, if he doesn't come to a complete stop, you've got a no-stop balk.

[NFUA_44]

So we can't have the CI since the B1 abandon's his position.  Got it.  I'm back to thinking (and I do know how many problems that promotes ) since the pitch was caught before it crossed a foul line I have a balk.  This is from the JEA:

 

A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher.
Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: All other deliveries of the ball by one player to another are thrown
balls.
Cross References: (see Index for comprehensive listing) 2.00 Illegal Pitch, 2.00 Throw
A legal pitch is one delivered in accordance with Rules 8.0l(a, b).
For the purposes of the playing rules, a pitch is distinguished from a throw by the status of the person who
delivers the ball. The pitcher is considered to have delivered a legal pitch if he does so from the rubber after the
batter is reasonably set and he meets the other criteria established in 8.0l(a, b).
A pitcher who legally disengages from the rubber becomes an infielder and any subsequent action by the pitcher
shall be treated accordingly. For example, if the pitcher legally steps off the rubber and then fakes a throw to first
base to feint a runner back to first, this action shall not be penalized since his action was that of an infielder. Should
a wild throw ensue and the errant ball enter dead ball territory, however, the penalty shall be the same as if any
infielder threw the ball into dead ball territory...8.0l(e). Ordinarily, of course, an errant throw by the pitcher from
the rubber which enters dead territory is penalized by only a one base award...7.05(h).
The Notes of Rule 8.01(d) specify that..."A ball which slips out of a pitcher's hand and crosses the foul line shall
be called a ball; otherwise, it will be no pitch. This would be a balk with anyone on base." This balk ruling is based
on 8.05(k).

I do realize that he didn't "drop" the ball, but the principle that a legal pitch wasn't thrown is what I'm looking at here more than anything else.

[JaxRolo]

This thread is just amazing. I don't think we are going to agree on what the correct call is. I think everyone is partially correct.

[BalkHawk]

At TOP everything was legal. The pitcher delivered to the batter. The batter is responsible for maintaining his legal position: entirely within the box to begin, and no foot entirely out of the box if he makes contact. Just for difficulty's sake, I am quoting the NCAA rules now- A batter may leave the batter's box but not the dirt area surrounding home plate when; he swings at a pitch, he is forced out by a pitch, time is granted, there is an attempted play on a runer, he feints a bunt, there is a wild pitch or passed ball, F1 leaves the mound, or F2 leaves his position to give signals.

[mstaylor]

If the pitcher does everything legal then it is a pitch. If the batter gives up and leaves the box, which if R3 is coming makes no sense, and the catcher comes through and catches the ball, how do you call the pitch? If the ball doesn't get to the plate then the umpire can't call it. If you want to use the J/R ruling and take out BI, it still a balk. You can't just throw the pitch away. You can't project the trajectory to be able to call it. It has to be something, the only out would possibly be if there were two outs already, but that is a copout.  

[Jocko]

If the pitcher does everything legal then it is a pitch. If the batter gives up and leaves the box, which if R3 is coming makes no sense, and the catcher comes through and catches the ball, how do you call the pitch? If the ball doesn't get to the plate then the umpire can't call it. If you want to use the J/R ruling and take out BI, it still a balk. You can't just throw the pitch away. You can't project the trajectory to be able to call it.   

That's my take on it. It never made it to the dish, so I can't call it a pitch. He never disengaged, so I can't call it a throw. I'm balking this one.

[mstaylor]

If the pitcher does everything legal then it is a pitch. If the batter gives up and leaves the box, which if R3 is coming makes no sense, and the catcher comes through and catches the ball, how do you call the pitch? If the ball doesn't get to the plate then the umpire can't call it. If you want to use the J/R ruling and take out BI, it still a balk. You can't just throw the pitch away. You can't project the trajectory to be able to call it.   

That's my take on it. It never made it to the dish, so I can't call it a pitch. He never disengaged, so I can't call it a throw. I'm balking this one.

I agree. This was a discussion on another board some years back and many felt you guess the pitch, others said balk it. I was in the balk camp. 

[JaxRolo]

(Playing devils advocate)

A pitch that goes 59 feet in the dirt didn't cross the plate. It's a "ball"

So if the catcher steps in front and catches it at 59 feet. What's the difference. The pitcher did what he is supposed to do.

[Jocko]

(Playing devils advocate)A pitch that goes 59 feet in the dirt didn't cross the plate. It's a "ball"So if the catcher steps in front and catches it at 59 feet. What's the difference. The pitcher did what he is supposed to do.

I'm balkin it :P

[BalkHawk]

I have contacted all of my most trusted mentors' and bugged each of them for their opinions on this matter. Their answers were not unanimous.

The first said he would not apply 7.07, due to the batter leaving the box.

The next, a simple "no." (7.07 would then, not apply)

Feeling satisfied with myself, (my previous posts on this topic were in agreement with two out of two so far) I contacted one final teacher, just to rule out any doubt. He did the opposite. Here is part of his reply:

"Good question. Regardless of the batter's actions, the catcher is obligated to let the pitch cross the plate before he can step on or in front of the plate. Therefore, it would be catcher's interference, and R3 would score, and the BR awarded 1st. We can't create gray areas as umpires. Saying that the catcher can do whatever he wants if the batter vacates the box before the pitch isn't a rule. All the batter has to do is start with 2 feet within the box before we allow the pitcher to pitch. If we ignore the catcher's responsibilities of allowing the pitch to cross the plate, you will run into a lot of problems. First and foremost, you won't be able to determine if it's a ball or a strike. Next, you will have to make another judgment call as to whether he left the box at a certain point that you can allow the catcher to leave his position, or not. The rule just doesn't exist."

[Jocko]

I have contacted all of my most trusted mentors' and bugged each of them for their opinions on this matter. Their answers were not unanimous.The first said he would not apply 7.07, due to the batter leaving the box.The next, a simple "no." (7.07 would then, not apply)Feeling satisfied with myself, (my previous posts on this topic were in agreement with two out of two so far) I contacted one final teacher, just to rule out any doubt. He did the opposite. Here is part of his reply:"Good question. Regardless of the batter's actions, the catcher is obligated to let the pitch cross the plate before he can step on or in front of the plate. Therefore, it would be catcher's interference, and R3 would score, and the BR awarded 1st. We can't create gray areas as umpires. Saying that the catcher can do whatever he wants if the batter vacates the box before the pitch isn't a rule. All the batter has to do is start with 2 feet within the box before we allow the pitcher to pitch. If we ignore the catcher's responsibilities of allowing the pitch to cross the plate, you will run into a lot of problems. First and foremost, you won't be able to determine if it's a ball or a strike. Next, you will have to make another judgment call as to whether he left the box at a certain point that you can allow the catcher to leave his position, or not. The rule just doesn't exist."

Balk

[mstaylor]

As I said, if you follow the J/R ruling that leaving the box takes the CI out, it is still a balk. Your two guys are correct, 7.07 goes away, buut he still has to allow the ball get to the plate. It is a pitch so it has to be judged a ball or strike, he doesn't let it get there, balk. I would shoot my batter if he stepped out with a steal coming. home. He has the right to swing at the pitch, even if he has no intention of doing so. This will inhibit legally the catcher's ability to tag the runner. If the batter stays and the catcher comes through, I absolutely would call 7.07.