Steal of home/balk?

[sdix00]

There is no such thing as a catcher balk, I understand, but if he steps out and makes the catch before the plate its a balk, or are u saying its f2 OBS/INT? I'm a so confuzzed!

Btw, I'm calling a balk on F1 for not delivering a pitch

 

 

What you are saying makes sense, by the letter of the rule governing a pitch.   But the FED rule book is clear.   It is F2 OBS only.

 

Everyone knows there is no such thing as a "Catcher's Balk".    That is why I put it in quotes - like "force at 1B".

 

 

But I use the term "Catcher's Balk"  as a concept to illustrate that if the Catcher steps  on/over HP to receive the pitch, it is a "Catcher's Balk" AND CI in OBR/NCAA, BUT it is ONLY Catcher's OBS in FED.

 

Maybe I should have said "Pitcher's Balk caused by the Catcher" in OBR/NCAA.

[bam]

Let's do a thought experiment on this one.....say the pitcher was properly in the set and delivered the ball in an otherwise legal manner. The catcher is now out of position - but so is the batter. For this scenario, let's say the catcher stepped straight ahead, so that the pitch/throw could plausibly be called a pitch. Now what? Catcher's obstruction?

Top of my head I'm still calling the balk if he catches it BEFORE it reaches the plate. It never got there, ergo he never delivered a legal pitch. If it is a balk when a dropped ball dosent cross a foul line, but becomes a ball when it does that is where I'm hanging my hat at the moment with just my phone and no manuals at hand.

 

If the pitch was delivered legally from the set position (that's what I understood from the OP), and the batter vacates the box before the catcher steps out, how is that CI? 

[Jocko]

Again I'm citing Fed. IF you dont call balk on F1 and IF F2 steps on or across the yes, OBS.

[noumpere]

Take it a step further... HP calls and signals OBS. DDB, correct? Runners are advancing with R3. F2 air mails it to the fence in CF. All rnners score on the throwing error. Let it stand?

Once F2 catches the ball then its dead.

 

In the OP, you could have a legal play if F1 stepped off.

 

You could have a balk if he failed one of the legal pitching requirement.

 

It looks like he did neither.

 

So, it is (or starts as) a legal pitch.  Once F2 catches the ball in front of the plate, then its CI or CO depending on the code.  Batter to frist. In OBR that's also a balk so advance all the runners.  IN FED, advance the runners who were stealing and those who were forced by BR being awarded first.

 

If F2 caught the ball behind the plate then call the pitch (and in FED its an automatic strike, I agree) and let the rest of the play stand. I'm not getting a second strike in FED because it's something that almost never should be called and the batter didn't delay the game.

[Jocko]

So many questions come to mind. The batter stepped out so penalty K. If it's K3 hes out. THEN F2 OBS. Normally we would award 1B, but since batter was out on the pitch :

[NFUA_44]

Ok so FED has a silly twist on it, I am shocked and amazed. Steve, Greg, thanks for your guidance thru the land of milk and cookies!

[noumpere]

So many questions come to mind. The batter stepped out so penalty K. If it's K3 hes out. THEN F2 OBS. Normally we would award 1B, but since batter was out on the pitch :

There's only the strike for steppign out if it was really a pitch so if F2 catches it in front of the plate then give him first.

 

It's like he swings, hits the mitt, misses the ball but F2 catches the pitch.  Strike three is ignored and the CO is enforced.

[bam]

Rule 2-22 2011 NFHS Baseball Rules Page 20

 

2 OBSTRUCTION AND FAKE TAG

 

ART. 1 . . .

Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as

physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team

personnel that hinders a runner or changes the pattern of play as in 5-1-3 and 8-

3-2; or when a catcher or fielder hinders a batter as in 5-1-2b, 8-1-1e, 8-3-1c and

8-3-2. When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing

action and the umpire has authority to determine which base or bases shall be

awarded the runners according to the rule violated (Exceptions 8-4-2c, 8-4-2d).

 

I contend there was no batter to obstruct, as he had vacated the batters box and was not eligible to legally strike at the ball. 

[BalkHawk]

Maybe I should have said "Pitcher's Balk caused by the Catcher" in OBR/NCAA.

 

That's the ticket!

[NFUA_44]

Poor KC has to be wonderin what we did to his OP. He started with an ugly sister and we're giving him the Cherry sisters, lol

[sdix00]

So many questions come to mind. The batter stepped out so penalty K. If it's K3 hes out. THEN F2 OBS. Normally we would award 1B, but since batter was out on the pitch :

There's only the strike for steppign out if it was really a pitch so if F2 catches it in front of the plate then give him first.

 

It's like he swings, hits the mitt, misses the ball but F2 catches the pitch.  Strike three is ignored and the CO is enforced.

 

I disagree with the bolded portion. 

 

If F1 starts his motion, B1 steps out with BOTH FEET, and F1 stops his motion.    Charge B1 with a strike.  6-2-4d1

 

 

6-2-4d1

If the pitcher, with a runner on base, stops or hesitates in his delivery

because the batter steps out of the box (a) with one foot or (b) with

both feet or (c ) holds up his hand to request “Time,†it shall not be a

balk. In (a) and (c ), there is no penalty on either the batter or the pitcher.

The umpire shall call “Time†and begin play anew. In (b), a strike

shall be called on the batter for violation of 7-3-1. In (a), (b) and (c ), if

the pitcher legally delivers the ball, it shall be called a strike and the ball

remains live. Thus, two strikes are called on the batter in (b). If the

umpire judges the batter’s action to be a deliberate attempt to create a

balk, he will penalize according to 3-3-1o.

 

 

[scrounge]

So many questions come to mind. The batter stepped out so penalty K. If it's K3 hes out. THEN F2 OBS. Normally we would award 1B, but since batter was out on the pitch :

There's only the strike for steppign out if it was really a pitch so if F2 catches it in front of the plate then give him first.

 

It's like he swings, hits the mitt, misses the ball but F2 catches the pitch.  Strike three is ignored and the CO is enforced.

 

 

I agree....seems like the progression should be first determining is it a pitch or not. If not, balk, dead ball immediately, R3 to home. If it's a pitch, then as noumpere stated, the catcher's obstruction comes into play - though for slightly different reasons. It's not that strike three is ignored, it's just that it's highly unlikely the offense will choose that result of the play - though they could. Delayed dead, see how it plays out, offer offense option of play or R3 to home since he was stealing and B/R to 1B. Can't imagine they choose that.

 

I suppose if the batter stepped out first, you could call the auto strike AND the catcher's obstruction. If for some unfathomable reason the offense chose the results of the play instead of the CO, we have a strike.

[noumpere]

Rule 2-22 2011 NFHS Baseball Rules Page 20

 

2 OBSTRUCTION AND FAKE TAG

 

ART. 1 . . .

Obstruction is an act (intentional or unintentional, as well as

physical or verbal) by a fielder, any member of the defensive team or its team

personnel that hinders a runner or changes the pattern of play as in 5-1-3 and 8-

3-2; or when a catcher or fielder hinders a batter as in 5-1-2b, 8-1-1e, 8-3-1c and

8-3-2. When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing

action and the umpire has authority to determine which base or bases shall be

awarded the runners according to the rule violated (Exceptions 8-4-2c, 8-4-2d).

 

I contend there was no batter to obstruct, as he had vacated the batters box and was not eligible to legally strike at the ball. 

 

What if F1 starts, BR steps out, then BR steps back in and hits the ball?  play stands, right?  So if F2 catches the ball in front of the plate, it's still CO.  No penalty strike.

 

 

So many questions come to mind. The batter stepped out so penalty K. If it's K3 hes out. THEN F2 OBS. Normally we would award 1B, but since batter was out on the pitch :

There's only the strike for steppign out if it was really a pitch so if F2 catches it in front of the plate then give him first.

 

It's like he swings, hits the mitt, misses the ball but F2 catches the pitch.  Strike three is ignored and the CO is enforced.

 

I disagree with the bolded portion. 

 

If F1 starts his motion, B1 steps out with BOTH FEET, and F1 stops his motion.    Charge B1 with a strike.  6-2-4d1

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with this part if no pitch is thrown.  I was just trying to think of a way to say that the CO penalty goes before the called strike.  Remember that the first one if the pitch is thrown is a srike on the pitch.  It's not really a penalty (except to the extent that it's automatically a strike even if it doesn't pass through the strike zone) but it still needs to be a completed pitch.  If no pitch is thrown, then you get the "penalty strike" for delaying the game.

 

rarely (like never) will you have both.

[Jocko]

KC, all of this is a bunch of guys playing 'what if' about your OP. To avoid all confusion and answer your OP I have it as a Balk. And in Fed that kils everything else. Award bases and play on.

Fantastic thread. Thought provoking and some very insightful answers. :clap:

Kudos to all involved :beerbang

[sdix00]

noumpere - 

I see your point and I disagree, but I can't tell you why.  

 

If you umpired my game and ruled that way, I wouldn't have a problem with it. 

[noumpere]

KC, all of this is a bunch of guys playing 'what if' about your OP. To avoid all confusion and answer your OP I have it as a Balk. And in Fed that kils everything else. Award bases and play on.

Fantastic thread. Thought provoking and some very insightful answers. :clap:

Kudos to all involved

Why do you have it as a balk?  All we know at least as I read the OP is that the pitcher came set, and then stepped toward home and threw the ball.  What makes this a balk rather than a legal delivery by the pitcher (irregardless of the subsequent actions of the catcher)?

[Jocko]

KC, all of this is a bunch of guys playing 'what if' about your OP. To avoid all confusion and answer your OP I have it as a Balk. And in Fed that kils everything else. Award bases and play on.Fantastic thread. Thought provoking and some very insightful answers. :clap: :clap:Kudos to all involved

Why do you have it as a balk? All we know at least as I read the OP is that the pitcher came set, and then stepped toward home and threw the ball. What makes this a balk rather than a legal delivery by the pitcher (irregardless of the subsequent actions of the catcher)? "Pitcher took one step towards home on the throw"

Without more information, my mind's eye is seeing this as disengaging forward. Doesn't sound like KC thought F1 used normal mechanics. I could be wrong, but that's what I'm envisioning.

[BalkHawk]

I don't have a balk here because I'm not calling catcher's interference when the batter is nowhere to be found. I could be wrong, but that seems to go against the spirit of the rules.

 

Yesterday, OBR, no on, no out, sharp roller to F6 who fields cleanly and throws to F3 who is straddling 1B, in the runner's lane. B/R sees F3 in his way, so he stops two steps shy of the train wreck. No OBS.

[bam]

I don't have a balk here because I'm not calling catcher's interference when the batter is nowhere to be found. I could be wrong, but that seems to go against the spirit of the rules.

 

Yesterday, OBR, no on, no out, sharp roller to F6 who fields cleanly and throws to F3 who is straddling 1B, in the runner's lane. B/R sees F3 in his way, so he stops two steps shy of the train wreck. No OBS.

Finally!  An enlightened soul! 

 

There has to be hindrence for it to be OBS.  To noumpere's point - YES!  If he steps back in and is obstructed then I have OBS.  Not until. 

 

Not totally enlightened though - I still have OBS on your F3 straddling the bag - if that runner stops to avoid a train wreck, FED recognizes that as OBS. 

[BalkHawk]

I don't have a balk here because I'm not calling catcher's interference when the batter is nowhere to be found. I could be wrong, but that seems to go against the spirit of the rules.

 

Yesterday, OBR, no on, no out, sharp roller to F6 who fields cleanly and throws to F3 who is straddling 1B, in the runner's lane. B/R sees F3 in his way, so he stops two steps shy of the train wreck. No OBS.

Finally!  An enlightened soul! 

 

There has to be hindrence for it to be OBS.  To noumpere's point - YES!  If he steps back in and is obstructed then I have OBS.  Not until. 

 

Not totally enlightened though - I still have OBS on your F3 straddling the bag - if that runner stops to avoid a train wreck, FED recognizes that as OBS.

 

Lets not even get into how stupid FED can be.

[bam]

Lets not even get into how stupid FED can be.

 

Well,   there is that......

[BalkHawk]

there is also the part where i specifically said it was OBR.

[NFUA_44]

Noumpere, why is it a balk if he is engaged and the ballis dropped w/o crossing a foul line? If we were looking at it in a vacuum and not considering F2's action. I may just be crazy in the head trying to understand the FED thought on it.

[bam]

there is also the part where i specifically said it was OBR.

Oh, well sure, there's that too.     

[noumpere]

"Pitcher took one step towards home on the throw"

Without more information, my mind's eye is seeing this as disengaging forward. Doesn't sound like KC thought F1 used normal mechanics. I could be wrong, but that's what I'm envisioning.

where is the requirement to use what you call normal mechanics?  Seems to me that by stepping with his free foot (and I assume that's what he did and not step with the pivot foot) that he met the requirements.  It's like the slide step.

 

Noumpere, why is it a balk if he is engaged and the ballis dropped w/o crossing a foul line? If we were looking at it in a vacuum and not considering F2's action. I may just be crazy in the head trying to understand the FED thought on it.

To stop the pitcher from intentionally dropping the ball getting the runner to leave and then picking up the ball that's still nearby and getting an out.  That's my guess.  Maybe Evans has something in his history of the rules stuff.  But that rule is the same in all codes and I'm not sure what it has to do with this play.