"Carelessly" throwing a bat

[Pops]

Fed Rule 3-3-1-c uses the language “carelessly thrown bat†(requiring a warning to the coach for the first offense).  Does anyone have a description for what this actually means?  I know this rule is not the same as 3-3-1-m where it says “deliberately throw a bat†(immediate ejection).

Is it careless to throw a bat when your hands are sweaty during a swing OR what if the batter is reaching for an outside pitch and it accidentally slips? Is there a distance requirement for how far the bat is thrown?  Must it hit someone? 

I’m just curious if any of you have criteria for this judgment call?  

I don’t know why, but the word “careless†has me over-thinking this rule.

[scrounge]

I had one kid (16 yrs old) in a rec league that constantly let the bat slip and let it fly to the backstop...I had seen him before a couple times as BU, but the next time I was PU. First time was an informal warning, the second time the bat nearly hit me - formal warning. Third time - delayed dead ball and ejected.

 

It's a judgment, but it certainly doesn't have to hit someone. For me, if it's not something out of the norm like your example of an outside reach and/or the bat goes flying for all to see, then that's careless - ESPECIALLY if it happens more than once.

[bam]

Yip.  You're over thinking it. 

 

Tossing a bat waist-high in a direction you're not looking and in the general direction of players/coaches/fans/(and especially)umpires is careless.   Quibble with the height if you want, but hat right there is careless. 

[JaxRolo]

You can tell an accidental throw/slippage from a careless throw.

Use your judgement

[NFUA_44]

Fed Rule 3-3-1-c uses the language “carelessly thrown bat†(requiring a warning to the coach for the first offense).  Does anyone have a description for what this actually means?  I know this rule is not the same as 3-3-1-m where it says “deliberately throw a bat†(immediate ejection).

Is it careless to throw a bat when your hands are sweaty during a swing OR what if the batter is reaching for an outside pitch and it accidentally slips? Is there a distance requirement for how far the bat is thrown?  Must it hit someone? 

I’m just curious if any of you have criteria for this judgment call?  

I don’t know why, but the word “careless†has me over-thinking this rule.

You need to measure "some" form of intent.  A slip, or sweaty hands causing the issue should be easily distinguishable from a bat that goes in another direction that could get you, F2, or the ODB.  At that, a mention to player and coach about holding onto the bat will help set the stage in the event this starts to become a repeat performance.

 

An Intentional toss, like anything else that gets tossed equipment related, that is a reaction to a call or play should be dealt with quickly and firmly.  YMMV

[mjr_2013]

I'd say that any bat throw that could, would, or did hurt someone if they were standing where the bat landed would be careless.

 

Intentional is any reaction to a call or play.

 

Does the case book have anything on this? I'll check when I get a chance

[Pops]

There is one case book example.  All it refers to is intentional vs. unintentional.  I think we can all agree on the intentional situation...eject.  But the word "unintentional" is not necessarily synonymous with "careless." 

As MJR said above, any throwing of the bat could potentially hurt someone if they were standing there.  So when the batter accidentally lets it go for any reason (slippage, lost grip, unfocused, off balance, cold hands, etc), I'm going to give a warning until someone can convince me otherwise. 

Thanks for your responses.

[Pops]

You can tell an accidental throw/slippage from a careless throw.

Use your judgement

Based on the answers given so far, I'm not so sure that you can tell the difference.  That's why it is a judgment call. So I guess I agree with half your answer.

[Jocko]

Splitting frog hairs. Slippage/accidental release is most definitely different than careless intentional release

[Pops]

Splitting frog hairs. Slippage/accidental release is most definitely different than careless intentional release

It's not splitting frog hairs if you want to understand the language used in a specific rule.

Intentional and careless are not the same thing.  MJR stated above that "Intentional is any reaction to a call or play" and I agree.  Example: Called third strike, the batter is angry, and he throws the bat into the fence...ejection.  

And I agree that slippage and accidental are the same thing. But the question here is, 'What is "careless?"  

The word careless seems to have an indefinable meaning in this rule.  Synonyms for the word careless include thoughtless, inconsiderate, insensitive, and uncaring.  It just doesn't fit here.  So in my judgment, I will define it as the bat flying out of the batter's hands with such force that it could potentially hurt another person on or near the field.  I will choose not to determine why it came out of the batter's hands because that's what clouds the issue here.

[bam]

You're looking at the wrong frog.  It IS splitting hairs.  You say Intentional and careless are not the same thing.  You are correct.  But you need to say "unintentional and careless ARE NOT the same thing". You're unnecessarily clouding the issue.  You're also confusing "thrown " and "released". 

[Pops]

You're looking at the wrong frog.  It IS splitting hairs.  You say Intentional and careless are not the same thing.  You are correct.  But you need to say "unintentional and careless ARE NOT the same thing". You're unnecessarily clouding the issue.  You're also confusing "thrown " and "released". 

I can't figure out what you are trying to say, so I'll respond only to your last sentence.  In the original rule under 3-3-1, are you saying that c and m are the same thing?  Both sections use the word "throw" and not "release" with regards to the batter's bat. If throwing and releasing are not the same thing, please set me straight.

[Jocko]

Figure it the same way you would a fly ball catch/no-catch. Intentional release or accidental? If he "accidentally" slings the bat during his swing and it goes into the dugout, was that an intentional release or was it accidental slippage? You're relying too much on Webster to tell you what you're seeing. Go with what you know. I think you're confusing throwing the bat in disgust, carelessy slinging the bat (and possibly hitting F2/HP) after a batted ball, and losing his grip. One is a bad attitude (GONE), one is a bad habit (WARNING), and one is an oops.

I'm affraid it sounds like I'm being a bit.....err..... harsh, but you have to trust yourself. Not trying to be all Freudian or anything, but you appear to be second guessing yourself. Call what you see. Trust your training. If he carelessly threw it and that's what you have... Call it. Don't hesitate. That will only open a whole other can of worms with the coaches. Relax and umpire.

[Pops]

Figure it the same way you would a fly ball catch/no-catch. Intentional release or accidental? If he "accidentally" slings the bat during his swing and it goes into the dugout, was that an intentional release or was it accidental slippage? You're relying too much on Webster to tell you what you're seeing. Go with what you know. I think you're confusing throwing the bat in disgust, carelessy slinging the bat (and possibly hitting F2/HP) after a batted ball, and losing his grip. One is a bad attitude (GONE), one is a bad habit (WARNING), and one is an oops.

I'm affraid it sounds like I'm being a bit.....err..... harsh, but you have to trust yourself. Not trying to be all Freudian or anything, but you appear to be second guessing yourself. Call what you see. Trust your training. If he carelessly threw it and that's what you have... Call it. Don't hesitate. That will only open a whole other can of worms with the coaches. Relax and umpire.

Thanks Jocko. I have no problem with ejecting the intentional bat thrower. All of my previous comments are centered around the accidental and careless ones. So in your comments above, how do you handle the third type (i.e. the one you describe as oops)?

[Jocko]

Give him a few seconds to put more pine tar on his bat. It's nothing.