Can you cite rules references?

[grayhawk]

If you were to be questioned by a manager during a game on a call, could you cite a rules reference if you wanted to? Not that I am advocating getting into any discussions long enough to have to cite a rule, but it may come in handy in certain circumstances just to shut someone up.

I think one would have to be like rain man to know them all, but there might be a few that tend to come up more often than others, or some that are commonly misunderstood where you could pull out the reference if needed.

[Puts on flak jacket] What say you?

[Umpire in Chief]

I personally wouldn't, but if you do you'd better be right.

[Mr Umpire]

Do not cite a rule number. If you are wrong, they will think you messed up the rule b/c they won't look for the actual rule. They will stop at the wrong one and want to prove it to you next time.

Simply explain the call and the rule which is applicable as close to the rule as you can. But, don't get hung up on trying to make it exact.

If you sound like you know what you are doing, most will stop there. For the rest, just make sure you do know what you are talking about. When they do go look it up, they will respect you even more if you are right.

[UmpTTS43]

I don't give the rule number. If needed, and I think it's warranted, I will give a brief explanation of the rule. Giving a rule number can get you in trouble. Say you know the rule number and give it during the explanation. Coach buys it and leaves. Next time coach comes out to discuss a ruling and you don't know the rule number. Coach asks what rule number is that? You may have gotten the ruling right, but since you can't give this rule number, the coach isn't going to believe you. Like I said, sometimes a brief explanation of the rule is necessary in order to clear it up for the coach.

I once worked with a guy that, after being asked by the coach why his player was ejected, said "He violated 4.06a" and left it at that.

[AllanA]

If you were to be questioned by a manager during a game on a call, could you cite a rules reference if you wanted to? Not that I am advocating getting into any discussions long enough to have to cite a rule, but it may come in handy in certain circumstances just to shut someone up.

I think one would have to be like rain man to know them all, but there might be a few that tend to come up more often than others, or some that are commonly misunderstood where you could pull out the reference if needed.

[Puts on flak jacket] What say you?

No. If HC/VC has a doubt he can protest. Then he can be shown the rule.

JMO

[grayhawk]

I don't give the rule number. If needed, and I think it's warranted, I will give a brief explanation of the rule. Giving a rule number can get you in trouble. Say you know the rule number and give it during the explanation. Coach buys it and leaves. Next time coach comes out to discuss a ruling and you don't know the rule number. Coach asks what rule number is that? You may have gotten the ruling right, but since you can't give this rule number, the coach isn't going to believe you. Like I said, sometimes a brief explanation of the rule is necessary in order to clear it up for the coach.

I once worked with a guy that, after being asked by the coach why his player was ejected, said "He violated 4.06a" and left it at that.

Which part of 4.06a? There's 4, Blue!

Seriously - I appreciate all the responses. It seems that unless you know your rules references cold, and I mean cold, then you are opening Pandora's box by citing a reference.

[mstaylor]

Citing rule numbers make you appear a know it all. If explaining a rule, paraphrase it but don't quote it exactly. I have quoted a rule number before but only when I am sure, the coach is a jackass and it is in my home area. I have been around long enough that I can say things that newer guys could never get away with. More than once a year or five is too much.

[UmpTTS43]

Which part of 4.06a? There's 4, Blue!

I know. Isn't that funny? Should have been 4.06a2.

Edited October 9, 2010 by UmpTTS43

[mstaylor]

If you are going to quote a rule on an ejection it has to 11.03g approved ruling.

[UmpTTS43]

If you are going to quote a rule on an ejection it has to 11.03g approved ruling.

OK. That's funny. :shakehead:

[jjb]

I'll use it sometimes to shut up a coach, but only when I'm absolutely sure that I've got the right cite. About 20 years ago I used to work at a field with no fence in back of first base: you can bet I've got 7.05g in my head. When the coach tries to argue the "1+1 rule" (whatever that means), I just tell him "nope coach, you'll find it in 7.05g", and it ususally shuts him up. I'll also use it when the coach whines "there's nothing in the rules that say I have to ----" and I just tell him "sure there is: it's under 9.01b". Since he's never actually read the rules, he'll usually scratch his head and sit down.

[mstaylor]

The last time I did was probably eight years ago in an adult game. I was on the plate of a double, first one went 11 innings and just short of three hours. It is now 11:30 at night, I have had three arguments in two batters and lost the asst coach. The manager says he will show me in the rulebook during the weekend tourny where I was wrong. I told him he would find it in 8.05.

[jjb]

:HSBetcha he wasn't even awake at 8:05...

[mstaylor]

:HSBetcha he wasn't even awake at 8:05...

That's funny.

The really funny thing was he indeed brought me a rule cite that had absolutely nothing to do with the problem. He also asked me why every time there was a rules problem he was on the short side of it? I had to tell him I couldn't tell him, then walk away quickly. :D

Edited October 9, 2010 by mstaylor

[Ros@]

When I started back in 2004 I ended up being one of the best in rules. Not nessesarly the best USING them but I knew them by heart.

I started in LL and I learned the 7.13 rules like no one else. So one day there was a dispute and I not only explained the rule but sent the coach to look it up as well. (Stupid of me, even though I quoted the right one, I know). But this started like a contest between the coaches. Everytime they asked me which rule it was. And I always replied the rule number. The times something happened on the field where I was not sure of my rule, I came home and looked it up right away cause next time it will not happen to me again.

Then on one occacion, there was a particular coach I didn't like at all. Always questioning every umpire. And he asked my the rule number. I answered very politely and almost wisely "coach, isn't it time you started to learn your rules before entering the field? This will be the very last time I will quote a rule for any of you. Please look 15.2 A to S."

Thank God he didn't have a rule book with him as it clearly showed afterwards he was not aware of any rules in the book.

At the end of the game, the coach came to me and laughing said "you got me".

But then, my CU called me aside and said. Please NEVER EVER do something like that again. It could have caused you your credibility as an umpire. I've learned my lesson. Whenever they want to know the rule number after I explained the rule, I will direct them to see me after the game if still needed.

They almost never come back. And the ones who does, for me it means they really want to understand the rule better. And I feel to help them where I can.

Nowadays it almost means nothing to me, when a coach ask me to explain a rule or situation. It means a greater deal for me, if/when an experienced umpire ask me for a rule interpretation. Eighter he is testing me, wants to learn me something or he is admiring my rule knowledge.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Ros@
Guess I found the correct word

[Umpire in Chief]

Rosa brings up a good point. There is a huge difference in knowing the rules and applying them correctly.