What would you do?

[The Adjudicator]

Middle school game, bottom 7 2 outs normally rookie board umps

1 strike on batter and coach replaces the pitcher.

Umps reset counters (whoops).

New pitcher, another strike, a ball or two and next pitch is a swinging strike, ball in the dirt. Ump calls strike 2, batter beelines for 1st on dropped 3K and catcher listening to ump returns ball to pitcher. Mayhem infield and umps finally admit they lost the count at pitching change. Now comes damage control, would you:

A) bring batter back with 2-2 count

B Strike 3, catcher would have had kid nailed, call

game over

C) leave runner on 1st and bring up next batter.

[UmpJM]

Adjudicator,

I'd go with C.

Even if the Ump loses the count, the players are still responsible to know it..

Batter seemed to know the Sitch.

JM

[scrounge]

Oh, that's a nasty one. Did he announce the count at any time (you'd think at that level he'd at least tell the new pitcher or announce it before putting the ball in play)? If so, I'd lean to A). The count is what was announced....there's no good way to get out of that muck.

[The Adjudicator]

I was not there, received my normal evening phone call when any rule question in town comes up. I would take option A,

UmpJM, interesting take as my thinking was home plate ump and only home plate ump owns the count. If he lost it he needs to own what he thought it was.

[johnnyg08]

Wrong. I agree with JM. Players are responsible for knowing the situation. Yes, umpire has to eat some crow, but life goes on for the youngsters.

A lesson learned nice and early in their playing days. You are responsible for knowing the situation.

[mjr_2013]

First of all, don't even mention option B... No way no how will I ever "assume" an out would be made.

C is the best option because for one, the players (such as the batter) are responsible for the real count.... It is also the easiest way to continue the game... Put the runner on 1st, and the defense can get a out on the next kid or the one after and no harm is done... Call it strike 2, and the next pitch is strike 3, of course the batter is going to bitch and moan that he should be on first and he has a legitiment case that he should... If a rally ensues because of happened and the home team comes back to win, the losing team may look to the ump because they want someone to blame, but in truth, they could and should have gotten the next batter out and had it make no difference.

I would only mention the first reason I gave (players responsibility) to a coach though... #2 would just confuse them.

[csabo17]

How did BU not give the situation to the new pitcher before he threw his first pitch? Is this not practiced everywhere?

On a pitcher change and after he throw his laat warm up pitch the BU will walk up to pitcher and say "runners on first and second, one out, and no count" in my association.

In this case he should of said " no one on, two outs, and your starting with an 0-1 count"

I agree with c in the damage control. Gotta chalk this up to the umps losing the count, and the batter knowing what was going on. Cant penalize him for that. Runner on first, two out, next batter.

[Jocko]

Only thing to do is...... GET IT RIGHT! The ACTUAL count. Eat your $hitburger and move on. Chalk it up to experience. We've all lost counts. It happens. Anything BESIDES "C" is not correct. Think of it like this..... If you inadvertently ring em up on K2, what do you do? Assume the proper count and look silly, right? So, if you accidentally DON'T ring em up on K3, same thing. The count is the count regardless.

[UMP45]

csabo17, what other situation are you going to coach him in? What if you're mistaken? You umpire and they play. :HS

[csabo17]

Maybe its wrong. Its just what we are taught to do at the high school varsity level here. Tell the pitcher whats going on that just came in the game. I dont see telling them how many outs and stuff to be any more coaching then telling them the count.

Kid: Blue, whats the count? 0-1

Kid: Blue, how many outs? 1

Me: Ok kid one out, with and 0-1 count to start.

Whats the difference?

[johnnyg08]

How did BU not give the situation to the new pitcher before he threw his first pitch? Is this not practiced everywhere?

Nope, it is not practice everywhere. Again, players are responsible for knowing the situation. It probably happens at below shaving age games, but I can't confirm that.

There is one umpire in our group who does this at high school and above, but I would never teach a new umpire to do that in our part of the country.

YMMV

[scrounge]

Giving the new pitcher the situation is pretty common around here as well at lower levels. Middle school? Almost always. JV? Common. Varsity? Rarely. But at the middle school/youth/rec league level, pretty much standard.

[sdix00]

I am an advocate for doing these things by the book, at least initially. I would be happy to incorporate this mechanic of advising the new pitcher if I had read about it anywhere.

As far as I know, it's just something umpires do because they recognize a deficiency (the coaching). Around here, it's done in youth leagues, and my UIC put a stop to it on day one in our league.

___

Back to the OP - Trout nailed it.

Fix the umpire, not the rule.

[SanDiegoSteve]

How did BU not give the situation to the new pitcher before he threw his first pitch? Is this not practiced everywhere?

Nope, it is not practice everywhere. Again, players are responsible for knowing the situation. It probably happens at below shaving age games, but I can't confirm that.

There is one umpire in our group who does this at high school and above, but I would never teach a new umpire to do that in our part of the country.

YMMV

Not a practice, although I've done it at lower levels. Usually only signal count/outs to partner before resuming play. If the pitcher or other player asks the situation, I'll be happy to tell him, but I put announcing the situation to the new pitcher in the same category as brushing off the pitcher's plate.

[johnnyg08]

same category as brushing off the pitcher's plate.

Can I get an amen!

[Replacematt]

How did BU not give the situation to the new pitcher before he threw his first pitch? Is this not practiced everywhere?

Nope, it is not practice everywhere. Again, players are responsible for knowing the situation. It probably happens at below shaving age games, but I can't confirm that.

There is one umpire in our group who does this at high school and above, but I would never teach a new umpire to do that in our part of the country.

YMMV

Not a practice, although I've done it at lower levels. Usually only signal count/outs to partner before resuming play. If the pitcher or other player asks the situation, I'll be happy to tell him, but I put announcing the situation to the new pitcher in the same category as brushing off the pitcher's plate.

"Okay, you've got 1 out, runners on 1st and 3rd. 3rd guy in the order is up; he's hit it to left both times today. Runner at first has some wheels, but is a bit hesitant. Runner at third won't know what to do, since this is his first time reaching any base since prom night."

[csabo17]

^

thats a little extreme.

Its an association wide thing here. Maybe i need to bring it to the assigners attention that its wrong.

[johnnyg08]

I would just ask him why they do it that way.

Tell him that your assn' is one of the only ones in the country who does it for high school players and see what he says.

If you say "you're doing it wrong" they're likely to get pretty defensive. It is very likely that they'll have a reason for it.

[mjr_2013]

I do it at LL Majors and below... "You have x outs, runners on y and z base, and this is a new batter."

Above LL Majors (which is near or at high school age), I will only mention it if the pitcher is assuming a count for some reason... "Don't forget you already have a x-y count"... If they want to know the outs, ask... If they want to know where baserunners are, step off and move your neck around.

[johnnyg08]

"Don't forget you already have a x-y count"...

When in Rome I guess. I just don't think that is part of the umpire's job unless they ask, then we can tell them...but if a coach doesn't tell his player the count that's not our job. If PU doesn't show the count when the new F1 comes in and is assuming a count that's something the PU should be doing, but it's not going to make or break the game.

[RC@54OUTS]

As far as telling the pitcher the info, that is only at lower levels. Call it preventive umpiring. At younger levels you just want Murphy's Law out of it. On the strike two call, where's a rock to crawl under. Yes players should know the count but when an umpire announces something different you got problems. I'm leaning toward A. I,d take my lumps and not let anyone gain from my mistake. It's not umpire interference like in the field. It's worse.

[johnnyg08]

So you bring him back, give him strike 4 and now he hits a bomb or whatever with the extra strike. C is really your only option here.

[JaxRolo]

Has to be C

[SanDiegoSteve]

New pitcher, another strike, a ball or two and next pitch is a swinging strike, ball in the dirt. Ump calls strike 2,

It's a good lesson to learn not to say, "Strike 2" on a swinging strike. I'm a "ha!!!" guy on called strikes anyway, no number given in any case.