Possible coach's assist?

[cookie]

OBR , 3-man mechanics, TOP'>TOP'>TOP'>R2, and batter hits HR.

As the base umpire at 3rd, I observed the BR missing the touch at 3rd base. BR is now 10-15 feet down the line toward home when the obviously observant 3rd base coach slaps the BR's hand (with a momentary clasp coupled with some words exchanged). After a very brief pause, BR continued on to home. The unaware defense made no appeal of the missed base.

I made no call on the assist because the BR made no attempt to return to 3rd. Had he returned to 3rd, then I would have called him out because of coach's assist. This was correct procedure?

[Rich Ives]

Read the "Coach call tonight" thread.

[AZump78]

Wow-I bet you were glad he didn't return to 3rd.

[mstaylor]

Sounds like nothing to me. He is allowed to shake hands, he is allowed to tell him to return.

[Rich Ives]

Sounds like nothing to me. He is allowed to shake hands, he is allowed to tell him to return.

As long as he doesn't slap him on the shoulder :smachhead:

[johnnyg08]

I wouldn't have called anything here.

[mstaylor]

Sounds like nothing to me. He is allowed to shake hands, he is allowed to tell him to return.

As long as he doesn't slap him on the shoulder

Absolutely! :hi5:

[spiritump_b]

this ia a 4 base award the coach did not assist the BR to get a faster start of to stop him from going home, let it go do not look for things. What is the difference with the BR slapping five with the coach as he rounds third and what happened here.

[cookie]

Read the "Coach call tonight" thread.

"(h) In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching

or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or

first base."

Ok, I've finally read through all of "Coach Call Tonight" (though my situation involves a dead ball).

I stand firm in my judgment that if the BR (after hitting his HR) had reversed his course and gone back to touch 3rd, it would have been because of the coach's brief clasping (not just slapping) of the BR's hand with the exchange of words to the effect that the base might not have been touched as BR momentarily stopped & turned his head to listen to his coach. (BR probably felt he had touched the base, so he went on to home.) I would have signaled INT, runner is out on coach's assist. However, since the BR made no attempt to go back to 3rd, disregarding whatever words his coach had momentarily stopped him for, he went on home, and I made no call. AND of course the defense was totally unaware of the missed base (probably thinking it was no more than HR congrats going on between the player and the coach) and therefore made no appeal of the missed base.

[Rich Ives]

Read the "Coach call tonight" thread.

"(h) In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching

or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or

first base."

Ok, I've finally read through all of "Coach Call Tonight" (though my situation involves a dead ball).

I stand firm in my judgment that if the BR (after hitting his HR) had reversed his course and gone back to touch 3rd, it would have been because of the coach's brief clasping (not just slapping) of the BR's hand with the exchange of words to the effect that the base might not have been touched as BR momentarily stopped & turned his head to listen to his coach. (BR probably felt he had touched the base, so he went on to home.) I would have signaled INT, runner is out on coach's assist. However, since the BR made no attempt to go back to 3rd, disregarding whatever words his coach had momentarily stopped him for, he went on home, and I made no call. AND of course the defense was totally unaware of the missed base (probably thinking it was no more than HR congrats going on between the player and the coach) and therefore made no appeal of the missed base.

Review the McGwire play before passing judgement here.

[UmpTTS43]

Review the McGwire play before passing judgement here.

That was INT. Just wasn't going to be called considering the situation.

[Replacematt]

That was INT. Just wasn't going to be called considering the situation.

Was it? After all, a ball is dead on a HR.

[mstaylor]

I am not sure you can have interference on a dead ball but you are going to call it, it better be pretty agregious. Short of cross body blocking the guy, picking him up and carrying him back to the base, leave it alone.

[AZump78]

I am not sure you can have interference on a dead ball but you are going to call it, it better be pretty agregious. Short of cross body blocking the guy, picking him up and carrying him back to the base, leave it alone.

+1

While it's great you recognized that could have been something-I wouldn't recommend taking the sh!tty end of that particular stick.

[BretMan]

Really surprised that it only took a dozen posts before anyone brought up the "live ball/dead ball" aspect of this call.

I have heard it debated that a base coach assisting a runner violation can only be called during a live ball. But I can't find anything that puts that interpretation in black & white.

Does anyone have any sort of official interpretation one way or the other?

[UmpTTS43]

Really surprised that it only took a dozen posts before anyone brought up the "live ball/dead ball" aspect of this call.

I have heard it debated that a base coach assisting a runner violation can only be called during a live ball. But I can't find anything that puts that interpretation in black & white.

Does anyone have any sort of official interpretation one way or the other?

I fail to see where it says the ball must be live in order for this to be called. The spirit of the rule is to prevent the offense from gaining an advantage. Physically stopping a runner and having him return to touch a missed base when the runner had not initially intended to do so is gaining an advantage and is INT.

[mstaylor]

Really surprised that it only took a dozen posts before anyone brought up the "live ball/dead ball" aspect of this call.

I have heard it debated that a base coach assisting a runner violation can only be called during a live ball. But I can't find anything that puts that interpretation in black & white.

Does anyone have any sort of official interpretation one way or the other?

I know of no official interpretation but I can assure you that you will never see it called on a fierld where the umpires are trained. If he can't be put out then how can the coach interfere?

[UmpTTS43]

Really surprised that it only took a dozen posts before anyone brought up the "live ball/dead ball" aspect of this call.

I have heard it debated that a base coach assisting a runner violation can only be called during a live ball. But I can't find anything that puts that interpretation in black & white.

Does anyone have any sort of official interpretation one way or the other?

I know of no official interpretation but I can assure you that you will never see it called on a fierld where the umpires are trained. If he can't be put out then how can the coach interfere?

If the coach assists the runner in correcting a base running error, then the opportunity for the runner to be put out, upon proper appeal, is taken away. Just because the ball is dead does not mean that the runner cannot be subsequenty called out on appeal.

[mstaylor]

See post 13

[cookie]

Post #13: "...it better be pretty agregious. Short of cross body blocking the guy, picking him up and carrying him back to the base, leave it alone..."

That's a pretty high threshhold before calling a "coach's assist!"

What if the runner had turned back to touch the missed base after having had his hand momentarily clasped by the coach, body spun 90 degrees, and told to go back and touch 3rd base? AND then an alert defensive coach comes running out to argue that he (the 3rd base coach) can't contact the baserunner like that. Do I as the 3rd base umpire tell him: "Well, he didn't cross body block, pick him up, and carry him back to 3rd. There's no real assist here, Coach?" I'm not sure I'd get very far on that one...

[mstaylor]

Ok, you have a runner coming around third, he misses third.

The coach shakes his hand and :

A. He says nice hit and he goes home.

B. He says nice hit, make sure you touched third, but the runner goes home anyway.

C. Same thing but the runner goes back and touches third.

D. Same thing but he starts for home. The coach runs beside him yelling to return.

Same play except the runner did catch third but the coach thinks he missed:

Apply all the plays above.

With a dead ball I have nothing in any of the above plays. Now change the play:

You multiple runners and a preceding runner stops or falls down. The trail runner or BR comes around and the coach grabs him to keep him from passing the preceding runner. Now you have an interference.

If the coach complains about a no call in my first set of sitches, just tell him it doesn't meet the criteria for interference during a dead ball.

[cookie]

(h) In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching

or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or

first base.

Ok, you have a runner coming around third, he misses third.

The coach shakes his hand and :

A. He says nice hit and he goes home.

I have nothing...

B. He says nice hit, make sure you touched third, but the runner goes home anyway.

I have nothing

C. Same thing but the runner goes back and touches third.

Depends on how I judge the "handshake;" If the coach grips (clasps) the runner's hand, spins the runner 90 degrees toward him as he tells him to go back and

touch the base, and the runner goes back to retouch 3rd, then I have coach's assist.

D. Same thing but he starts for home. The coach runs beside him yelling to return.

I have no call, letting the coach naively inform the defense of the missed base.

Same play except the runner did catch third but the coach thinks he missed:

I'd let it go because there is no real assist, here...

[UmpTTS43]

I'm still having a hard time finding out where it says that you can't have a coach assist penalty on a dead ball. Maybe because it isn't there. You can definately have INT from a coach assist during a dead ball. Once you understand that, you can see how the penalty can and should be applied.

[Rich Ives]

The rules don't always mean what they appear to mean.

Running out of baselines anyone? Clarified rule was very recent and there was nothing in writing before that.

Same with getting hit in the batter's box.

Sometimes you just have to know what to do.

[UmpTTS43]

I understand that there are rules that need clarifications and interpretations. What I am relaying is that the clarification I have and employ says you can have INT from a coach assist during a dead ball. I have nothing in writing, but that is the interp I have been taught and use in OBR games.