Scoring Teaser

[UmpTTS43]

Rule teaser to get baseball juices flowing.

OBR. R2, 2 out. Base hit. R2 touches plate before BR is put out at 2nd. After touching plate but before BR is put out, R2 retouches home and retreats towards 3rd after a teammate says he missed 3rd base in advancing. R2 is inbetween 3rd and home when the 3rd out is recorded on the BR. What is the ruling concerning the "scored run" when 1] R2 actually missed 3rd in advancing 2] R2 did not miss 3rd when advancing?

[Forest Ump]

OBR. R2, 2 out. Base hit. R2 touches plate before BR is put out at 2nd. After touching plate but before BR is put out, R2 retouches home and retreats towards 3rd after a teammate says he missed 3rd base in advancing. R2 is inbetween 3rd and home when the 3rd out is recorded on the BR. What is the ruling concerning the "scored run" when 1] R2 actually missed 3rd in advancing 2] R2 did not miss 3rd when advancing?

R2 scores in situation #1 until a legal appeal is made and upheld. R2 scores in situation #2.

[Rich Ives]

Rule teaser to get baseball juices flowing.

OBR. R2, 2 out. Base hit. R2 touches plate before BR is put out at 2nd. After touching plate but before BR is put out, R2 retouches home and retreats towards 3rd after a teammate says he missed 3rd base in advancing. R2 is inbetween 3rd and home when the 3rd out is recorded on the BR. What is the ruling concerning the "scored run" when 1] R2 actually missed 3rd in advancing 2] R2 did not miss 3rd when advancing?

The runner cannot "unscore" a run.

Rule 5.06 Comment: A run legally scored cannot be nullified by subsequent action of the runner, such as but not limited to an effort to return to third base in the belief that he had left the base before a caught fly ball.

If there's no appeal the run counts.

If there is an appeal he is out if he actually missed 3B, otherwise the run counts.

[mstaylor]

Forrest is correct and Rich channeled my response. He worded almost exactly my thoughts when I read the OP.

[sdix00]

Question -

Let's say BR is safe at 2nd.

In what manner, if any, can R2 successfully return to correct his miss of 3B after scoring?

1. Retouch HP on the way back to 3B, touch 3B, return to touch HP

2. Retouch HP on the way back to 3B, touch 3B, enter dugout

3. R2 cannot return to correct a base running error (other than missing HP) after scoring.

4. Another option?

Any case play or other citation?

[Mr Umpire]

Question -

Let's say BR is safe at 2nd.

In what manner, if any, can R2 successfully return to correct his miss of 3B after scoring?

1. Retouch HP on the way back to 3B, touch 3B, return to touch HP

2. Retouch HP on the way back to 3B, touch 3B, enter dugout

3. R2 cannot return to correct a base running error (other than missing HP) after scoring.

4. Another option?

Any case play or other citation?

He can't do it regardless. Option 3 is it. Once he touches HP, he has legally scored a run. Rich's rule cite says it cannot be undone even if his belief is he left early (or missed the base). Basically, he better correct his mistake before he touches HP. After that, he is subject to appeal regardless of what he does AND the PU must order him off the bases if he remains at 3B at the end of the play. He's done once he touches HP.

[ukce1861]

In case 1 of the OP, isn't this a case where the defense, but their actions, makes their intent to appeal obvious? Obviously R2 is is returning to touch a missed base. Isn't the Defense then, by playing on him, obviously appealing this missed base? I think I would inclined to rule that way...

[Rich Ives]

In case 1 of the OP, isn't this a case where the defense, but their actions, makes their intent to appeal obvious? Obviously R2 is is returning to touch a missed base. Isn't the Defense then, by playing on him, obviously appealing this missed base? I think I would inclined to rule that way...

The could be just trying to tag him because he's off the base. It must be obviusly an appeal, not just an attempt to tag a runner who is off the base. I'd require a verbal announcement of the appeal.

[Rich Ives]

Question -

Let's say BR is safe at 2nd.

In what manner, if any, can R2 successfully return to correct his miss of 3B after scoring?

1. Retouch HP on the way back to 3B, touch 3B, return to touch HP

2. Retouch HP on the way back to 3B, touch 3B, enter dugout

3. R2 cannot return to correct a base running error (other than missing HP) after scoring.

4. Another option?

Any case play or other citation?

He can't do it regardless. Option 3 is it. Once he touches HP, he has legally scored a run. Rich's rule cite says it cannot be undone even if his belief is he left early (or missed the base). Basically, he better correct his mistake before he touches HP. After that, he is subject to appeal regardless of what he does AND the PU must order him off the bases if he remains at 3B at the end of the play. He's done once he touches HP.

If he missed 3B he hasn't legally scored so he can go back using method 1. He is assumed to have scored absent an appeal, but until the defense forfeits the ability to appeal it isn't a legal score.

[mstaylor]

Again Rich is correct and beat me to it. If he has missed third or left early on a tagup then he certainly return to third to correct the mistake, including staying at third if he can't get back home. The two things that make it so he can't return is if he didn't make a mistake and has legally scored, or somebody has scored after him.

[grayhawk]

Again Rich is correct and beat me to it. If he has missed third or left early on a tagup then he certainly return to third to correct the mistake, including staying at third if he can't get back home. The two things that make it so he can't return is if he didn't make a mistake and has legally scored, or somebody has scored after him.

There's one more: If the ball becomes dead (for instance, the defense is trying to throw over to 3B to make an appeal and the ball is thrown into DBT) before R2 touches home, and then he touches home, he cannot legally go back to correct his miss of 3B.

[Mr Umpire]

Question -

Let's say BR is safe at 2nd.

In what manner, if any, can R2 successfully return to correct his miss of 3B after scoring?

1. Retouch HP on the way back to 3B, touch 3B, return to touch HP

2. Retouch HP on the way back to 3B, touch 3B, enter dugout

3. R2 cannot return to correct a base running error (other than missing HP) after scoring.

4. Another option?

Any case play or other citation?

He can't do it regardless. Option 3 is it. Once he touches HP, he has legally scored a run. Rich's rule cite says it cannot be undone even if his belief is he left early (or missed the base). Basically, he better correct his mistake before he touches HP. After that, he is subject to appeal regardless of what he does AND the PU must order him off the bases if he remains at 3B at the end of the play. He's done once he touches HP.

If he missed 3B he hasn't legally scored so he can go back using method 1. He is assumed to have scored absent an appeal, but until the defense forfeits the ability to appeal it isn't a legal score.

Well, as I have done so much in the past, I went on another's word (League assignor) and didn't look it up in references. Just the rule book. Which I didn't have at my disposal at the time when this question came up, the WUM wasn't available at the time. The argument was that the run did score legally simply b/c he touched HP using 5.06. Well, after now looking it up in additional references and only finding it in WUM (for now), it seems the runner can go back if he truly did miss the base. Pg 80 for those playing at home.

Another example of get as many additional references as possible and don't just rely on another's word regardless of who they may be.

[mstaylor]

There's one more: If the ball becomes dead (for instance, the defense is trying to throw over to 3B to make an appeal and the ball is thrown into DBT) before R2 touches home, and then he touches home, he cannot legally go back to correct his miss of 3B.

Good catch, didn't think about that scenerio.

The point to remember is if he hasn't made a baserunning mistake, even if he thinks he did, he can't be thrown out for trying to return. Even if he has touched the plate, if he is really fixing a mistake then he is very much liable to be put out.

[Rich Ives]

Question -

Let's say BR is safe at 2nd.

In what manner, if any, can R2 successfully return to correct his miss of 3B after scoring?

1. Retouch HP on the way back to 3B, touch 3B, return to touch HP

2. Retouch HP on the way back to 3B, touch 3B, enter dugout

3. R2 cannot return to correct a base running error (other than missing HP) after scoring.

4. Another option?

Any case play or other citation?

He can't do it regardless. Option 3 is it. Once he touches HP, he has legally scored a run. Rich's rule cite says it cannot be undone even if his belief is he left early (or missed the base). Basically, he better correct his mistake before he touches HP. After that, he is subject to appeal regardless of what he does AND the PU must order him off the bases if he remains at 3B at the end of the play. He's done once he touches HP.

If he missed 3B he hasn't legally scored so he can go back using method 1. He is assumed to have scored absent an appeal, but until the defense forfeits the ability to appeal it isn't a legal score.

Well, as I have done so much in the past, I went on another's word (League assignor) and didn't look it up in references. Just the rule book. Which I didn't have at my disposal at the time when this question came up, the WUM wasn't available at the time. The argument was that the run did score legally simply b/c he touched HP using 5.06. Well, after now looking it up in additional references and only finding it in WUM (for now), it seems the runner can go back if he truly did miss the base. Pg 80 for those playing at home.

Another example of get as many additional references as possible and don't just rely on another's word regardless of who they may be.

So now ask your assignor this: "If the run legally scored then does that mean you cannot call the runner out on appeal? It must because the rules say you can't unscore a legally scored run. Correct?"