how to end play when two runners are on first and the defense won't make a play?

[peterpalma]

I volunteer umpired a machine pitch little league game a few days ago.

These are kids who just moved up from t-ball and many of them don't know the basic rules yet.

There was R1 when the batter hit the ball directly to the 2nd baseman.

The ball bounced off his glove and he "caught" it with a chicken-wing.

R1 went to second without tagging up and BR ran to first.

The offensive coaches were yelling for R1 to come back to first.

The defensive coaches were yelling for the second baseman to throw the ball to first.

By the time he did, BR was standing on first. Shortly after the throw arrived, R1 came back to first so now both runners are touching first.

The defense never tagged either runner.

All the coaches and players are looking at me to to see what the call is.

I'm not making a call because I currently have "no catch" with BR safe at first and R1 out as soon as he's tagged, but no one tags him.

I wait a LONG time and then I call time.

Now what's the call?

Am I correct that a "chicken wing" with no hands isn't a catch?

Based on little league rules, where are the runners and is anyone out?

I put the BR on first and R1 on second with no outs.

[DirtyDawg]

Did he drop the ball on the ground after chicken winging it?

[peterpalma]

Did he drop the ball on the ground after chicken winging it?

No, he didn't drop it.

Was it a catch since he didn't drop it?

[DirtyDawg]

As far as I'm concerned, if the ball never touched ground, and he then gained control over the ball, it's caught. BR is out.

[jjb]

Yeah, as soon as he grabbed the ball, he gained control, and you've got the BR out. Then, when he tagged 1st, you've got R1. Bingo, Bango, you've got two, and nobody had to tag anybody.

[JaxRolo]

Sounds like an easy call

BR out on the catch, R1 safe if he made it back before the throw to first.

[peterpalma]

I thought I'd seen a reference (not here) to a "trap" versus a "catch" and that a trap wasn't a catch, but I can't remember where I saw it. This may have been specifically about a ball thrown to a base for a force out.

A search for "little league" and "trapping the ball" turned up some points.

From OBR and based on what has been called in the pro's, it would be a catch.

I'm still not sure it is for little league because of the definition in the little league rule book.

[jjb]

Put a baseball on the ground

Put your glove on top of it

That's a "trap"

"Catch" (all leagues) is secure posession in hand or glove, with a voluntary release (nutshell version).

Now, your "chicken wing" is not a catch, as the ball is neither in his hand or glove. BUT, as soon as he reaches in and grabs the ball with his hand, THEN you've got the catch. And, (as long as the ball never touches the ground), you've got the out.

[DirtyDawg]

"Trapping the ball" refers to when a fielder catches the ball against the ground with an upturn glove. This really isn't a catch, but a way of stopping the ball from going further past him.

[Mr Umpire]

Sounds like a DP in the OP.

[JaxRolo]

Sounds like a DP in the OP.

You are correct Sir. The OP says that R1 returned shortly after the throw to first.

DP !!! :clap:

[dleavitt39]

I think where the OP may have gotten confused with the chicken wing is this. On a d3k and/or foul tip situation, if the ball doesn't go directly into the catchers mit, it is considered dropped/foul ball, so if it tips the glove, and then the catcher chicken wings it, it's not a catch. That's the only time I can think of where it can be no catch w/o the ball touching the ground.

DL

[Dragon29]

You are correct Sir. The OP says that R1 returned shortly after the throw to first.

DP !!!

Not necessarily . . . remember the age/expertise of the players.

Question: Did the 1st baseman touch 1st base after catching the ball?

If he did, then DP

If he didn't, then R1 is safe back at the base.

[yawetag]

I think where the OP may have gotten confused with the chicken wing is this. On a d3k and/or foul tip situation, if the ball doesn't go directly into the catchers mit, it is considered dropped/foul ball, so if it tips the glove, and then the catcher chicken wings it, it's not a catch. That's the only time I can think of where it can be no catch w/o the ball touching the ground.

DL

Are we talking OBR or Fed?

[catoblue]

In LL-speak, here is the 2.00 definition of CATCH with casebook and instructor comments. Basically, F2's chicken wing is a catch.

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in the hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it before it touches the ground providing such fielder does not use cap, protector, pocket or any other part of the uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following contact with the ball the fielder collides with a player or with a wall, or if that fielder falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove complete control of the ball and that release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

“The Right Call” Casebook -- Play 2-1: A legal catch occurs when a fielder holds the ball: (a) in his/her hands; ( under his/her arm; © in his/her cap; (d) in his/her glove. Ruling: (a) Yes; ( No; © No; (d) Yes. Play 2-2: Batter hits a fly to center field. The center fielder gets the ball in his/her hand(s) but drops it: (a) when he/she falls to the ground and rolls over; (B) when he/she collides with a fielder or a wall; © when he/she starts to throw to the infield. Ruling: In (a) and (B), it is not a catch. In ©, it is a legal catch if the ball was held long enough for the center fielder to regain his/her balance but is then dropped in a motion associated with an intended throw. Thus providing the fielder has complete control of the ball and that release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:

⇒ When the rule states that the player may not use “any part of the uniform” in gaining possession, it means to gain possession by utilizing a part of the uniform. Trapping the fly ball against the uniform or chest protector is okay if the player gains and maintains possession in the hand or glove or both.

⇒ Runners may advance the instant the fly ball is touched by a defensive player.

⇒ For safety and the fact that it is a “Dead Ball Area”, a fielder may not enter the dugout to make a catch.

[yawetag]

In LL-speak, here is the 2.00 definition of CATCH with casebook and instructor comments. Basically, F2's chicken wing is a catch.

Am I missing something? I see three things in what you posted that say it's not a catch:

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in the hand or glove

“The Right Call” Casebook -- Play 2-1: A legal catch occurs when a fielder holds the ball: (a) in his/her hands; ( under his/her arm; © in his/her cap; (d) in his/her glove. Ruling: (a) Yes; ( No; © No; (d) Yes.

⇒ When the rule states that the player may not use “any part of the uniform” in gaining possession, it means to gain possession by utilizing a part of the uniform. Trapping the fly ball against the uniform or chest protector is okay if the player gains and maintains possession in the hand or glove or both.

In effect, it's only a catch if the ball is eventually possessed in the hand or glove before hitting the ground.

[ukce1861]

Not to sound sarcastic (cause I honestly don't mean it this way) but if he threw it to first, he must have secured possession in his hand. I agree that for purposes of a force at second (for instance), a chicken-wing catch would not be a catch, but for the OP, it works.

[yawetag]

Not to sound sarcastic (cause I honestly don't mean it this way) but if he threw it to first, he must have secured possession in his hand. I agree that for purposes of a force at second (for instance), a chicken-wing catch would not be a catch, but for the OP, it works.

I agree. The way the OP was written, F4 didn't drop the ball between chicken-wing and throwing. If he didn't, it's a catch, BR is out and R1 is safe at 1B.

[JaxRolo]

I agree. The way the OP was written, F4 didn't drop the ball between chicken-wing and throwing. If he didn't, it's a catch, BR is out and R1 is safe at 1B.

The op says the throw beat the runner hence dp

[mstaylor]

I misread the OP and thought it said he beat the throw. Since he didn't you have two.

[yawetag]

The op says the throw beat the runner hence dp

Whoops. :eatcrow:

[JaxRolo]

Whoops. :eatcrow:

I had said the same thing you did and someone corrected me

[catoblue]

In LL-speak, here is the 2.00 definition of CATCH with casebook and instructor comments. Basically, F2's chicken wing is a catch.

Am I missing something? I see three things in what you posted that say it's not a catch:

A CATCH is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in the hand or glove

“The Right Call” Casebook -- Play 2-1: A legal catch occurs when a fielder holds the ball: (a) in his/her hands; ( under his/her arm; © in his/her cap; (d) in his/her glove. Ruling: (a) Yes; (B) No; © No; (d) Yes.

⇒ When the rule states that the player may not use “any part of the uniform” in gaining possession, it means to gain possession by utilizing a part of the uniform. Trapping the fly ball against the uniform or chest protector is okay if the player gains and maintains possession in the hand or glove or both.

In effect, it's only a catch if the ball is eventually possessed in the hand or glove before hitting the ground.

... and since the fielder somehow managed to throw the ball before it touched the ground, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and ASSUME that he threw the ball with his hand and not his armpit. With that assumption, he would have need to have had secure possession in the hand = CATCH.

[JaxRolo]

So if the ball had bounced of F4 's head into F3 's glove we have a DP :banghead:

[yawetag]

... and since the fielder somehow managed to throw the ball before it touched the ground, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and ASSUME that he threw the ball with his hand and not his armpit. With that assumption, he would have need to have had secure possession in the hand = CATCH.

I agree with this. However, to say "a chicken-wing is a catch," which you did, is incorrect. It's not a catch until it's secured in the hand or glove.