Coach ejection

[cyclonehokiece]

12U USSSA tournament championship game, I am BU. Bottom of the third, 2 outs, runner on second, visiting team down over 10 runs. Ball hit to shallow right, runner overruns the bag in fair territory, beating the throw (quite common at this age level) without making an effort to go to second, and is in the process of jogging back to first. Visiting team starts yelling at first baseman to tag the runner while he is returning, and he does tag him, and I call him safe. Visiting Head Coach gets hot, and jogs out to me without calling time (I hear my partner call time when he gets to me). He questions me about the call quite loudly, and questions how I can call a runner safe because he overran in fair territory, and I state to him the runner made no effort to advance to second, so he is safe. At this point, he states, loud enough for everyone to hear "That's 3 you have missed this game." At this point, my response is "Coach, your done." Surprisingly, at this point, he turns around and walks directly off the field and leaves. The game continued without incident and ended the next inning due to mercy rule with the visitors losing 13-0. After the game, the coach apologies to me (he must of received a phone call from someone in the parking lot because he left the vicinity for the rest of the game), saying he should have never said those things to me while gathering the ball bag to return to the tournament director. I assured him the next time we see each other (lots of teams play multiple tournaments in this tournament organization) would be clean slate, just like every game should be.

The one thing I still don't get is why coaches still insist that the runner has to go to foul territory to overrun first. I guess I will never know.

[Guest]

"Coach, you're down 12. Try harder."

*walk away*

[cyclonehokiece]

"Coach, you're down 12. Try harder."

*walk away*

Wish that wouldn't seem like baiting, otherwise that would be very useful.

[mstaylor]

It is just another myth that just won't die. As I have said many times there is the 80/20 rule. Unfortunately that may not be entirely acurate, there is a percentage played with myths. The myths are kept alive by both untrained umpires and coaches.

[Umpy]

I had a 12 year old say to me "But blue, he turned left!" (being that the runner did an about face to the left instead of the right), and he seemed more than satisfied when I explained what I believe is the origin of the myth. When you turn into fair territory an umpire could mistake that as an attempt towards second, and if you go foul its impossible to make that mistake. So its easy for kids to mistake the coaching of "turn foul" to mean you HAVE TO according to the rules, and then the kid grows up to coach and doesn't realize he's spreading a myth.

[Dragon29]

The myths are kept alive by both untrained umpires and coaches.

. . . and clueless broadcasters!!!

[stl_ump]

I'm just wondering if it is even necessary to signal safe on something like that. You signaled safe on the actual play. In this case there is nothing to signal safe or out about. The runner didn't do anything to warrant a call.

[mstaylor]

Exactly right stl_ump. If he isn't liable to be tagged out just yell it is nothing. Some will say that to show it is nothing, show safe. It possible but I don't.

[cyclonehokiece]

This might be one of those learning moments for me. I see it from two points of view. One is the way you present it. The other is that it is a live-ball appeal being made on the runner, similar to "he missed first" where you have to call safe if he passed the bag before the ball.

[mstaylor]

Both situations are possible. My point is if he is subject to be appealed then show safe or out. If he just went down and turned around and they are attempting to appeal in a situation where it isn't viable then simply say he is not viable. If you show safe in a case where he isn't liable to be tagged out then you are just keeping the myth alive.

Let me ask this question: You have a viable appeal at third for a missed base. Play has relaxed, maybe even gone back to the mound. They throw to third to appeal but the R1 takes off for second and F5 throws to second to get him out. The appeal is no longer viable at third. If they retry at third do you show safe or say there is no appeal possible because of an intervening play? If you show safe with no explanation then they have no idea why.

[cyclonehokiece]

I see your point. The only reason I ruled was the tag was applied before the runner reached the first base bag on his return (after he made no attempt to advance to second). I think I am in a bit of a Catch-22 here. I make a call, I advance the myth. I do nothing, I have a s***storm. Either way, I am going to have an irate coach on my hands. Live and learn (that is why I posted it here). Thank you for all of your input.

[mstaylor]

I'm not saying to say nothing, I'm saying to not make a call. What you do is announce that it is nothing, not liable to be put out. If the F3 says he turned the wrong way, tell himit makes no difference and then go to your next position. If the coach comes out, tell him that it doesn't matter which way he turns, only if he made an attempt to advance to second.

[mjr_2013]

The problem I've had is with it confusing the BR...

I'm BU... Ground ball hit to F6, BR beats it out as the ball gets by the F3 to the fence... BR turns left, heading straight to the bag, undoing his batting gloves... DM and parents start yelling out, "tag him! tag him!"... F3 has the ball near the bag and starts going towards him, BR starts a little dance move, helplessly hoping to get back to the bag... I say "No, no, no, no, no. He's fine" (I'm sure that is the same vocal taught at Wendelstedt and JEAPU) and called time... F3 or F9 (I can't remember which) asks me why, he turned left, I give him the simple explanation, "He has to have intent toward 2nd base"... I don't think the kid agreed, but they are taught better in the league than to argue...

What should I have done? I mean, I'm just trying to take the lesser potential s***storm at that point... I got lucky, and the kid just invented a new dance, but if I had done nothing or just given a vocal and he had decided to run to 2nd, whether he ends up making it safe or not, I'm screwed!

[mstaylor]

You did exactly what I am saying. Tell them no and kill the dance. It will most require an explanation because they are operating on the same myth the parents and coaches are. I have seen this dance many times, the coaches and parents are all yelling to tag him, the runner gets confused and tries to get back. Just go in saying there is no play, then straighten out the mess. What I am saying is don't just call him safe and leave them uncorrected in regards to the myth.

[cyclonehokiece]

Will remember that next game.

[wek29]

Back in the day when I coached, we had to perpetuate this myth...for the fear of the one umpire who might believe it! Trust me, I've seen it a few times. (Ok, so we just taught them to turn to the right, but now I wonder how many of them thought it was rule?)

[mstaylor]

Back in the day when I coached, we had to perpetuate this myth...for the fear of the one umpire who might believe it! Trust me, I've seen it a few times. (Ok, so we just taught them to turn to the right, but now I wonder how many of them thought it was rule?)

Most of them. :cheers:

[Umpire in Chief]

The myths are terrible. Last night in the BoSox Yanks game Costas and his partner espoused quite a few about the strike zone, about check swings and something else. It made me want to take another pain killer.

[UmpJeff]

The one thing I still don't get is why coaches still insist that the runner has to go to foul territory to overrun first. I guess I will never know.

Oh, I get it. They simply don't know the rules. :shakehead: