uncaught third strike/check swing

[carolinablue]

any count with 2 strikes on the batter and less than 2 outs and unoccupied 1B. Pitch in the dirt and batter check swings as ball bounces of catchers chest. How should this be handled between the umpires ? The way I see it, if the PU doesn't call the strike on the swing then this is going to be a ball if he comes to me on it. Anyone else see it any different ?

[Mr Umpire]

No. If the PU delays at all, call it a ball. If you don't, then the offense is at an unfair disadvantage. Now, if it is so obvious that the whole ball park knows, then call it a strike and talk to your partner in between innings. But, on questionable ones, call it a ball. That is my opinion to attempt to keep the umpires from influencing the game too much.

The PU takes all responsibility for this since it all starts with him.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

Here in Canada we are taught that in this situation the PU has to be aware and proactive. Where there is a question of did he go..ASK your partner before being asked. So the mechanic would be, on the pitch, check swing, PU calls Ball -no he did not go, THEN immediately go to your partner for help. Did He go!?

This way if the batter takes off right away you are giving the catcher a chance.

If the batter just stands there, well you are still giving both the offence and defence a chance because as the catcher is scrambling to get the ball the batter hears that it was strike 3 and he can take off

The only hitch to all this is the BU has to be aware as well and ready for a quick response to the appeal.

[dawg-man]

I have been told to just say " ball" and not say " no he did not go" and then ask immediately if there is any doubt. If you say " no he did not go " and then ask and your partner says yes he did it has a way of looking bad.

[Mr Umpire]

I agree about not saying "No, he didn't go". When that is said, one of 2 things will happen.

1) BU agrees. DM says "He talked you into it" or "Make your own calls". BU is thrown under before he even gets a chance.

2) BU disagrees. Now, all of the PU's judgment calls are in question. Crew can't even agree on what is the right call. So on and so forth. PU gets thrown under by his own doing.

Looks bad either way. I stop at "Ball" and leave it at that. It is already implied PU has the batter not swinging but he didn't say it. And, not saying something goes a long way.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

Mr Umpire and Dawg-man.. I will preface this response by letting you know I learned the mechanic of saying, "Ball - No he did not go", at an, Ed Hickox umpire clinic about 10 years ago. So IMHO if it's something taught by a pro it's good enough for me too What I don't understand is how can asking your partner after saying, No he did not go, make you or your partner look bad? It happens all the time. The posting here deals with a check swing that could be strike 3. As PU your call says it was a ball, not because it was way out of the strike zone, but because you did not think the batter offered at the pitch, and you are declaring so. When the appeal request is given to the BU he has a choice on his call, "No he didn't or Yes he did". I don't think there is any bus in the vicinity here.

Mr Umpire...

Firstly I don't see a knowledgable manager squawking about this. In fact the DM is probably yelling at you to, "check that"!!! you are just beating him to the punch. Any prolonged grief from the offensive manager will get him ejected as he is now arguing balls and strikes. So there is that problem solved. If the BU rings the ball player up for strike 3. How does that undermine the PU's ability. Like I said check swing appeals happen all the time. As a PU I have no problem with the BU calling something different than I do, and when I am the BU I have no trouble calling what I saw, and it has no bearing on what the call of the PU is. You are a crew and as such you are there to back each other up. That's what this does. At the same time it's also helping the teams at the same time.

[Mr Umpire]

Mr Umpire and Dawg-man.. I will preface this response by letting you know I learned the mechanic of saying, "Ball - No he did not go", at an, Ed Hickox umpire clinic about 10 years ago. So IMHO if it's something taught by a pro it's good enough for me too What I don't understand is how can asking your partner after saying, No he did not go, make you or your partner look bad? It happens all the time. The posting here deals with a check swing that could be strike 3. As PU your call says it was a ball, not because it was way out of the strike zone, but because you did not think the batter offered at the pitch, and you are declaring so. When the appeal request is given to the BU he has a choice on his call, "No he didn't or Yes he did". I don't think there is any bus in the vicinity here.

Mechanics change, especially over 10 years. As I have heard before, saying "Ball" is equivalent to saying "Ball, No, he didn't go". I have never heard that at a pro game when I can clearly hear PU say "Ball" followed by nothing every time. And, then, hear him say "Did he go?" when asked. Why ask if the PU is so sure he didn't go? I know it is in the rules but if he is so sure, then why have the rule in there. PU called it so why check it.

Mr Umpire...

Firstly I don't see a knowledgable manager squawking about this. In fact the DM is probably yelling at you to, "check that"!!! you are just beating him to the punch. Any prolonged grief from the offensive manager will get him ejected as he is now arguing balls and strikes. So there is that problem solved. If the BU rings the ball player up for strike 3. How does that undermine the PU's ability. Like I said check swing appeals happen all the time. As a PU I have no problem with the BU calling something different than I do, and when I am the BU I have no trouble calling what I saw, and it has no bearing on what the call of the PU is. You are a crew and as such you are there to back each other up. That's what this does. At the same time it's also helping the teams at the same time.

And, I will preface this by saying I didn't make any of those comments up. I have heard them before and it came from the PU saying "No, he didn't go" over several check swings in which I agreed. It only takes about 3 or 4 and it gets said. All it has to be is said once and others hear it. After that, it can't be taken back and others will begin to think it. Been there.

If he only said "Ball", then there is nothing leading about that call. So, if I agree the batter checked his swing, then it doesn't appear the PU told me to say it. I made that call on my own. Like I said, saying nothing can go a long way. And, by saying the "No" part, it sounds like the PU is trying to say "That is my call only" and it doesn't look good by appearance.

And, it is not arguing balls and strikes if he comes out to and says "Why won't you check with your partner when I want a swing checked?" or "Why won't you let your partner make his calls?" How is he arguing balls and strikes? He is asking a question based on the appearance being perceived by the PU.

Again, appearance is everything. If PU says everyone didn't go, but BU says they all did, how does that look? Remember, you have to look at it from an unknowledgeable fan/player perspective. Or, even a knowledgeable coach who will use it if possible, especially to divert attention off of him for some reason. There are even assignors/evaluators who don't like that appearance.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

So we have a difference of opinion here Fantastic!!

Anyone else want to join in??:

So,You say no MLB PU uses this mechanic. I would bet a lot more do than you realize(although I have no proof to back that up) and you seem to have the contrary evidence although no one specific is mentioned.

This whole thread is what to do on a check swing that could be strike 3. Like I said from the start you go to your partner before anyone even has a chance to ask you to. At the samer time you still need to do your job behind the plate which means calling more than just balls and strikes. IMHO saying BALL is not the same as saying BALL No He Did Not Go. If that is the case, why do you hear, "Check It" from the benches in this same situation when it is not strike 3

As for an arguing coach, I would never hear "Why won't you check with your partner when I want a swing checked?" because I would never refuse to ask for help on a check swing. In this case(check swing 3rd strike) it is IMPERITIVE to go to your partner before even being asked.

The other complaint you use,"Why won't you let your partner make his calls?" Well I am letting him make his call. I am asking him to make a call.

If I call Ball I actually hope he calls it a strike so we are one pitch closer to going home.

So to me I am just adding a little information to make things a little easier to understand for the players, coaches and fans by letting them know what I saw.

To go on a slight tangent, do you ever say BALL, outside?

Based on your previous messages I would say no. However I know that MLB umps use location along with their ball calls quite a bit, especially on close pitches. Rob Drake penned a great article about it when he had his Umpires Life Blog. It provides the defences especially the catcher that you saw the pitch and he does not have to ask, Where was that (insert MLB Umpires name)?

So based on my mini novel here (sorry about that ) and your last comment I wonder about the supervisors/evaluators and assignors who value appearance over game control.

[Umpire in Chief]

I read somewhere that on a D3K check swing the PU can rule w/o being asked because of the urgency of the matter.

Do I tell where a pitch missed? No, but if they ask I'll tell them.

Now a lot of the big league guys do things which aren't what is now accepted as mechanics have changed over the years. So you can definitely pick up some good things, but there are also some bad habits which you wouldn't want to pick up.

[mazzamouth]

Again, appearance is everything. If PU says everyone didn't go, but BU says they all did, how does that look? Remember, you have to look at it from an unknowledgeable fan/player perspective. Or, even a knowledgeable coach who will use it if possible, especially to divert attention off of him for some reason. There are even assignors/evaluators who don't like that appearance.

They will look like they got the call right... I do not think this is throwing your partner under the bus, but merely getting the call right.

each umpire on the field will have a different look at the check swing.

I went to 2 clinics this fall.. one with a bunch of CWS umpires,and the other taught by a Pro school. And neither school/clinic had issues with this mechanic.

I will not get mad at my partner for, calling it a swing when I didnt...

I know I will say " ball, no he didn't go" it lets everyone know I saw his ugly swing, but did not think he went far enough... bu my partner who has a good look down the line might think something else.. and I'm ok with this... as we know a coach assistant or not can't come out to talk about a check swing...LOL

Edited February 17, 2010 by mazzamouth

[Mr Umpire]

No, I don't say location with it. F2 can figure it out. The only time one should ask is if it was borderline on 2 edges of the zone such as low and inside.

As far as it being a D3K call, I say "Ball. Did he go?" while pointing to my partner. Simple, short and gets to the important decision of what my partner has. A statement by PU, "Ball. No, he didn't go. Did he go?" Say that too fast and it can leave others confused. Also, it takes just a second longer to say and a second is a major difference between safe and out.

I never said for the BU not to call what he saw. If BU disagrees on the call, then fine. But, if he agrees on all of them, it still looks like the PU is leading. I have dealt with it before and prefer not to again. B/c then, if that statement is made and then the BU calls a strike, the offense complains that the defense talked him into making that call. It threw him under the bus one way or another potentially.

As I have heard before, the less you say, the better. They can't use what you say against you if you don't say it.

I didn't say no MLB umpire does it. I said I haven't heard one do it. And, as UIC mentioned, MLB umpires are not the best place to pick up mechanics. Triple A umpires are probably the best since they have plenty of experience with mechanics and know what is acceptable. Plus, they are working hard for a MLB slot so they will do their best to perform. But, for 2 man mechanics, I believe Single A is better since they work 2 man most of the games, if not all of them. And, maybe even Double A if they work 2 man.

[dawg-man]

I too will say " ball, did he go?". I just think if one says " No he did not " and the BU says yes he did then it looks like we have issues with one another. I am all for getting it right and will ask the BU anytime someone asks me to.

[Mr Umpire]

Honestly, this is really not a debateable idea. It is more of a disagreement in philosophy. There is no right or wrong way. I just know what I have seen and dealt with. So, I will not do the same to someone else if I can prevent it.

Matter of preference is all. Some will like your method, others will like mine. No big deal unless mandated by an association to do it one way or the other.

[BrianC14]

On a D3K with a check swing, you shouldn't even be taking the time to say "No, he didn't go" - it's only going to screw things up further.

Just make the call and ask immediately (ahead of the potential appeal), and work to get the call right.

Stop worrying about "how it looks". Worrying about "how it looks" smells of ego getting in teh way.

Get the call right.

:D

[BrianC14]

They will look like they got the call right... I do not think this is throwing your partner under the bus, but merely getting the call right.

each umpire on the field will have a different look at the check swing.

I went to 2 clinics this fall.. one with a bunch of CWS umpires,and the other taught by a Pro school. And neither school/clinic had issues with this mechanic.

I will not get mad at my partner for, calling it a swing when I didnt...

I know I will say " ball, no he didn't go" it lets everyone know I saw his ugly swing, but did not think he went far enough... bu my partner who has a good look down the line might think something else.. and I'm ok with this... as we know a coach assistant or not can't come out to talk about a check swing...LOL

I agree here, except that on a D3k, there really isn't time to be spent on the "no he didn't go" aspect... you'll want to get the 'Ball' call and jump right out and go to your partner, who needs to be anticipating this and provide an immediate, and decisive call. If he says, "No", then there are other issues to be concerned with - such as F2 going to F3, the potential for a runner scoring, advancing, etc. etc.

[mazzamouth]

I agree here, except that on a D3k, there really isn't time to be spent on the "no he didn't go" aspect... you'll want to get the 'Ball' call and jump right out and go to your partner, who needs to be anticipating this and provide an immediate, and decisive call. If he says, "No", then there are other issues to be concerned with - such as F2 going to F3, the potential for a runner scoring, advancing, etc. etc.

I never said on a D3K to say no. he didn't go..all i say is , " no catch, no catch" with the safe signal.

[BrianC14]

I never said on a D3K to say no. he didn't go..all i say is , " no catch, no catch" with the safe signal.

Peace.

I was trying to stay on topic.

But what if you need to appeal? (Let's say the drop is obvious, but the check swing is not...

[mazzamouth]

Peace.

I was trying to stay on topic.

But what if you need to appeal? (Let's say the drop is obvious, but the check swing is not...

Did I miss some where in this topic were we went to a D3K play?...LOL

[NFUA_44]

Did I miss some where in this topic were we went to a D3K play?...LOL

Umm, yeah mazz, the OP is all about a D3K. :D

[mazzamouth]

Umm, yeah mazz, the OP is all about a D3K.

ok back to the OP..( i see were I got taken off the beaten path) the check swing in the dirt.. all , I will not say anything Unless I think he went, if he didnt go, then unless asked I will not ask BU..I dont care about asking him, or if there is some delay then he is suppose to call it a ball cause I waited to ask him ( i have never heard of this wives tale)

[Mr Umpire]

ok back to the OP..( i see were I got taken off the beaten path) the check swing in the dirt.. all , I will not say anything Unless I think he went, if he didnt go, then unless asked I will not ask BU..I dont care about asking him, or if there is some delay then he is suppose to call it a ball cause I waited to ask him ( i have never heard of this wives tale)

Then, by not going immediately to their partner on a potential D3K, PU has put the offense at an unfair disadvantage. By the time F2 recovers the ball and asks, BR might as well go back to the dugout b/c he has no shot to get to 1B.

Might as well say "Yes, he did" and eliminate even asking their partner. Then, all have the same advantage every time. At least if the BU says no every time this occurs when a PU delays asking, it won't disadvantage either side as long as it is not a 3-2 count.

That is a reason why the PU should ask immediately without hesitation on a potential D3K. This is also why the MLBUM has the "Voluntary Strike" section. It is a direct statement telling BU not to wait if the PU hesitates. Go ahead and render a call if the call is going to be "Yes, he did".

Don't be the 10th defensive player and hinder the offense. Give them the same opportunity and not influence any part of the game like that.

[mstaylor]

Then, by not going immediately to their partner on a potential D3K, PU has put the offense at an unfair disadvantage. By the time F2 recovers the ball and asks, BR might as well go back to the dugout b/c he has no shot to get to 1B.

Might as well say "Yes, he did" and eliminate even asking their partner. Then, all have the same advantage every time. At least if the BU says no every time this occurs when a PU delays asking, it won't disadvantage either side as long as it is not a 3-2 count.

That is a reason why the PU should ask immediately without hesitation on a potential D3K. This is also why the MLBUM has the "Voluntary Strike" section. It is a direct statement telling BU not to wait if the PU hesitates. Go ahead and render a call if the call is going to be "Yes, he did".

Don't be the 10th defensive player and hinder the offense. Give them the same opportunity and not influence any part of the game like that.

I agree 100%.

[Dean]

1. The PU shouldn't delay. If there is a delay the BU should give an honest assessment of the check swing (i.e. a ball or a strike.)

a. The offense knows there is a chance for a reversal of the PU ball call, so they should be running. That is the offense's issue, not the BU. Just like when B1 thinks it was ball four and heads to 2nd but then is tagged out when the check swing is changed to a strike. The offense has to be aware of how to play baseball and the rules.

2. I like the BU immediately coming in with the call (on check swing D3K) not needing to be asked. I cover this in my pregame.

3. I don't like saying "No, he didn't go." as it does appear to the uneducated that the two umpires are coaching each other or contradicting each other.

[mazzamouth]

Then, by not going immediately to their partner on a potential D3K, PU has put the offense at an unfair disadvantage. By the time F2 recovers the ball and asks, BR might as well go back to the dugout b/c he has no shot to get to 1B.

Might as well say "Yes, he did" and eliminate even asking their partner. Then, all have the same advantage every time. At least if the BU says no every time this occurs when a PU delays asking, it won't disadvantage either side as long as it is not a 3-2 count.

That is a reason why the PU should ask immediately without hesitation on a potential D3K. This is also why the MLBUM has the "Voluntary Strike" section. It is a direct statement telling BU not to wait if the PU hesitates. Go ahead and render a call if the call is going to be "Yes, he did".

Don't be the 10th defensive player and hinder the offense. Give them the same opportunity and not influence any part of the game like that.

So i'm trying to make sense of your post...the op was a pitch in the dirt, and the batter might have went right?...

All I said was if i ( my opinion ) did not think he went, then I will not say anything.... you know what...f**k it.. i'm done with this dumbazz thread and all this talk.. it's taught by 2 pro school's to say , ball he didnt go... its not a secret code to tell your partner "

" hey partner If I ever say , ball, he didn't go, don't change it to a strike,"

you do what you want, and I will do what I have been taught.

[Mr Umpire]

So i'm trying to make sense of your post...the op was a pitch in the dirt, and the batter might have went right?...

All I said was if i ( my opinion ) did not think he went, then I will not say anything.... you know what...f**k it.. i'm done with this dumbazz thread and all this talk.. it's taught by 2 pro school's to say , ball he didnt go... its not a secret code to tell your partner "

" hey partner If I ever say , ball, he didn't go, don't change it to a strike,"

you do what you want, and I will do what I have been taught.

Where did this come from? Did you read the post you quoted me on? It had nothing to do with "No, he didn't go". Not once was that mentioned in that post. Maybe you weren't able to make sense of it b/c you didn't even read it.