Ball out of play... award of bases

[Hammy]

First post on this message board...

Try to keep it brief and concise.

18U USSSA Tourney Rules (Modified MLB)

Bases loaded

BR hits a high fly ball to deep right center. As outfielder tries to chase it down the ball hits the fence, on the fly, about 2 feet from the top then the ground then...(here is the fun part)...as the fielder comes running in for the ball he reaches for it and pops it over the fence himself. It happens so quick I could hardly believe it but am 100% sure that is what happens.

BR is standing on 3rd. Base umpire (I'm plate) indicates BR to return to 2nd for "ground rule double" and R1 to 3rd base. I come out to confirm with him that he saw the outfielder put the ball over. He agrees 100%.

Now here is the question...

I rule that since outfielder put the ball out of play and that should be ruled the same as if he threw it out of play. Hence outfielder is T.O.T correct? BR was nearing 2nd base at the time of the fun. Base umpire agrees (probably out of ignorance) and we award BR 3rd (two bases from TOT) and R1 home. Everyone from both teams totally agrees with explanation and game goes on. It felt great knowing the right thing to do but now I'm second guessing myself....Thoughts?

Thanks!

[yawetag]

Unless the fielder did it on purpose, you kicked it.

6.09g: The batter becomes a runner when any bounding fair ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or over or under a fence on fair or foul territory, in which case the batter and all runners shall be entitled to advance two bases

7.05f Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected into the stands outside the first or third base foul lines; or if it goes through or under a field fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery or vines on the fence; or if it sticks in such fence, scoreboard, shrubbery or vines;

[Hammy]

Really? "the batter becomes a runner ...advance 2 bases" From T.O.P or T.O.T??? (assuming I can call the deflection the same as a throw)???

I guess that I've seen a ball bounce over a fence <for a ground rule double> on a sure triple and that seems to penalize the offense.... but this case seems like an obvious (and the key here might be "unintentional") mistake by the defense shouldn't penalize the offense in that same fashion.

I hate it when things don't make sense.

Unless the fielder did it on purpose, you kicked it.

6.09g: The batter becomes a runner when any bounding fair ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or over or under a fence on fair or foul territory, in which case the batter and all runners shall be entitled to advance two bases

7.05f Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected into the stands outside the first or third base foul lines; or if it goes through or under a field fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery or vines on the fence; or if it sticks in such fence, scoreboard, shrubbery or vines;

[mstaylor]

I saw an A ball manager almost get ejected when a pitcher made a pick-off at first, it rolled down the wall, hit the tarp and bounced out of play. The runner was on third and the umpire sent him back ti second. It was not pretty.

[noumpere]

Really? "the batter becomes a runner ...advance 2 bases" From T.O.P or T.O.T??? (assuming I can call the deflection the same as a throw)???

I guess that I've seen a ball bounce over a fence <for a ground rule double> on a sure triple and that seems to penalize the offense.... but this case seems like an obvious (and the key here might be "unintentional") mistake by the defense shouldn't penalize the offense in that same fashion.

I hate it when things don't make sense.

yawetag is correct that its a so-called ground rule double. Now if the ball had come to rest or nearly so and the fielder had then inadvertantly kicked it over the fence youd have a different ruling. But since the batter put the momentum on the ball even if the final direction was provided by the fielder the result is the same as the ball just bouncing over the fence. So it does make sense.

[Hammy]

Wow. My first post ever and it turns out I was wrong.

I'm very disappointed...I was so happy and proud to take control of a strange situation and get it right...and now my first reply is ...."...You kicked it..."

[sdix00]

Wow. My first post ever and it turns out I was wrong.

I'm very disappointed...I was so happy and proud to take control of a strange situation and get it right...and now my first reply is ...."...You kicked it..."

These are the good ones. We learn more when we are wrong than when we are right. That's the whole point of this board.

The more mistakes you make on this board, the fewer you will make on the field.

You did it the right way, too. You used logic, did your research, and learned how to properly apply a weird rule.

Welcome to U/E!

[mstaylor]

Don't feel bad, we all make mistakes. Well, I don't but the rest do. Actually you are to be commended, you had an odd play, grabbed the bull by the horns and made a ruling, then came here to see if it was correct. The problem comes when you make a ruling, assume it's right and never check. I am a rules interpreter in my area and I certainly will kick a rule from time to time. When I started in my HS group we had an old guy, late 60s, who was pretty strong rulewise but if he thought he may have kicked something or was unsure of a ruling, as soon as we hit the truck whover was the BU was in the book to find out. He always said he may get caught once but not twice.

[carolinablue]

I agree with the others. You may see a play like that once a season or less and somebody has to make a call. You may have been wrong but you had good logic and sold it and everyone was OK, I say good job.

[Thunderheads]

All that is said is true.

Andrew's "you kicked it" isn't an insult, ...he's just sayin' ...ya know??

Anyhow, ... it won't happen again right? That is what this board is all about. And, one thing that hasn't been brought up yet .... everyone was fine with your ruling and your explanation, yes ??? SO ..... only NOW do you know that you got it wrong, ...no one knew the wiser when you ruled on it.

Learning is good, and can be fun!

Good job!

[Hammy]

Yeah I hear you all.

thanks for the "love"

I did sell it very well (mostly because I felt so sure about it). The running of a tight ship is something I love to do when I'm out there. Although that day after 5 straight 18U games in the 105 heat index...the concentration level does start to be challenged! water, water, water.

I am going to start trying to post more to get the help. (I hope I don't get fired from my real job for being on here too much LOL)

Hammy

[HugoTafurst]

Yeah I hear you all.

thanks for the "love"

I did sell it very well (mostly because I felt so sure about it). The running of a tight ship is something I love to do when I'm out there. Although that day after 5 straight 18U games in the 105 heat index...the concentration level does start to be challenged! water, water, water.

I am going to start trying to post more to get the help. (I hope I don't get fired from my real job for being on here too much LOL)

Hammy

5 straight 18U games?????

Someone needs a new UIC!!!

:givebeer: