This happen last night

[Mr Umpire]

Let's not get overly silly here - if he touches home plate, of course he scores.

What I am most certainly NOT going to do is consider R3 to have touched when he's just jogging past, several feet away, heading to dugout-ville - especially if a play isn't being made on him. A runner would have to be brain dead to miss the plate by that much when there's no play being made on him. This is NOT like a runner who is trying to score, and simply leaps over the plate, or slides by and misses. That sort of thing is obvious - he's trying to score, and simply missed the target. Some runners will get up and move away (even though they know they didn't touch, but don't want to let on that they may not have, otherwise, F2 could see that move back to the plate and tag him out).

No - a runner (like in this situation) that's jogging past, sprinting past, whichever - who misses home plate by X number of feet isn't trying to score, and I'm not considering that he has touched the plate - no way, no how. We don't disagree about what happens when R3 hits the dugout - we all know he's out on abandonment. Where we differ is the "assume he touched home plate" bit. No way would I give R3 that.

Ok. You say several feet. What if it is by just inches? Again, maybe he made an obvious effort to touch and is just playing his little mind game or maybe he didn't? Also, what if he missed it by 1 foot in front, stepped over it, and missed it by 1 foot behind with intent to touch or no intent to touch(who knows)? Score the run or out for abandonment?

All I am saying is it depends on how close he gets. If he is many feet away(which can be as low as 1 foot for 1 umpire), then call the abandonment. But, if he is inches or steps over top of it with intent or no intent to touch, are you going to call him out for abandonment or score the run? Like I said, it is a "no-win" situation but there has to be a limit set and you have to be the one to set it. It will be different for each umpire and 2 feet is not an unreasonable distance to consider the runner as touching HP.

[Mr Umpire]

Rule 7.10

Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.

Rule 7.10 doesn't specify the number of outs. The defense left the field. It's not the umpire's fault if they had their heads in the clouds.

This is from 7.10 after (d). What constitutes the end of a half-inning? 3 outs(5.07).

Edited May 29, 2009 by Mr Umpire

[BrianC14]

Ok. You say several feet. What if it is by just inches? Again, maybe he made an obvious effort to touch and is just playing his little mind game or maybe he didn't? Also, what if he missed it by 1 foot in front, stepped over it, and missed it by 1 foot behind with intent to touch or no intent to touch(who knows)? Score the run or out for abandonment?

All I am saying is it depends on how close he gets. If he is many feet away(which can be as low as 1 foot for 1 umpire), then call the abandonment. But, if he is inches or steps over top of it with intent or no intent to touch, are you going to call him out for abandonment or score the run? Like I said, it is a "no-win" situation but there has to be a limit set and you have to be the one to set it. It will be different for each umpire and 2 feet is not an unreasonable distance to consider the runner as touching HP.

You see - you're changing the situation again! And yes, you ARE changing the terms of the situation.

This is why the umpire is called upon to make a JUDGMENT CALL. Heck, I've seen a B/R who banged one out 420 feet for a home run miss a base - even home plate! It happens! Brain cramp, whatever.

But stick to the original idea here. R3 has wandered off from third base - he's somewhere between the mound and home plate, heading toward his dugout. Does that sound like a ballplayer who's trying to score a run?

There is a difference in that and a runner who's obviously trying to score, and a runner who's head is up his arse. JUDGMENT. (or Judgement, if you prefer). ;)

[Mr Umpire]

You see - you're changing the situation again! And yes, you ARE changing the terms of the situation.

This is why the umpire is called upon to make a JUDGMENT CALL. Heck, I've seen a B/R who banged one out 420 feet for a home run miss a base - even home plate! It happens! Brain cramp, whatever.

But stick to the original idea here. R3 has wandered off from third base - he's somewhere between the mound and home plate, heading toward his dugout. Does that sound like a ballplayer who's trying to score a run?

No, you're trying to get it to fit your argument of calling them out for abandonment every time(it sounds like). I have stated from the beginning it depends upon how close they get to HP. You keep erasing that and saying I am applying it to a runner who is 30 feet from HP. It depends upon how far they are from the plate and I am NOT referring to the runner in the OP. And haven't been since I made my first post.

[BrianC14]

No, you're trying to get it to fit your argument of calling them out for abandonment every time(it sounds like). I have stated from the beginning it depends upon how close they get to HP. You keep erasing that and saying I am applying it to a runner who is 30 feet from HP. It depends upon how far they are from the plate and I am NOT referring to the runner in the OP. And haven't been since I made my first post.

I'm not erasing anything!

You're going to give a guy credit for touching the plate (and yes, I agree, you've been consistent all through this, so hat's off to you for that) simply because he happens to pass the plate "closely".

I think there's more to it than that. The "how close they get" was a stipluation in the OP... he was somewhere between home and the plate. Again, I ask, in that scenario, do you think that runner is trying to score?

My judgment: Heck no!

So now you're arguing from a "what if he's 1" away". How convenient. Why didn't you just say that from the start? I've tried to stick to the OP, and in doing so, I disagree that there are two options on what to call. There aren't! A runner that's somewhere between the mound and home plate is not trying to score, and I won't consider him to have touched.

[Mr Umpire]

I'm not erasing anything!

You're going to give a guy credit for touching the plate (and yes, I agree, you've been consistent all through this, so hat's off to you for that) simply because he happens to pass the plate "closely".

I think there's more to it than that. The "how close they get" was a stipluation in the OP... he was somewhere between home and the plate. Again, I ask, in that scenario, do you think that runner is trying to score?

My judgment: Heck no!

So now you're arguing from a "what if he's 1" away". How convenient. Why didn't you just say that from the start? I've tried to stick to the OP, and in doing so, I disagree that there are two options on what to call. There aren't! A runner that's somewhere between the mound and home plate is not trying to score, and I won't consider him to have touched.

Neither would I and I have never said I would consider him. I have always limited it to being close to HP. And, my passing the plate is within a reasonable distance such as 2 feet or less. I never said the OP runner would be considered to touch.

I never deviated from that as for all the 'gross miss(no attempt)' conversation. But, an umpire does have 2 options, nonetheless. Which he chooses is up to him but for me, it depends upon how close he gets to HP(which is what I said the whole time). And, if the runner is halfway between HP and the mound, he will be out for abandonment. That is a 'no attempt to score' path which is what I said the entire time.

I think you misread my initial post to start this whole mess. My initial post was never about the runner in the OP after I answered his initial question. It was a "if the runner makes it to the dugout, then it depends how far from HP he was when he passed it(or turned around toward his dugout)" scenario not related to the OP. Then, the umpire has 2 options and the distance the runner was from HP determines what the call should be.

If I deem the runner as not making an attempt to score, ie. halfway between HP and the mound, then he is out for abandonment. If I deem him within a reasonable distance from HP upon passing it, ie. 2 feet or less, then he will be out on a successful appeal. I will not consider him as touching it, then, call him out for abandonment. It is 1 or the other, but not both.

[noumpere]

I think you've contradicted yourself here.

"It doesn't matter how far off he is..."

"...he gets three feet variance..."

He can move 150 feet off the baseline if he wants to... only when the defense initiates a play on him does that 3' variance come into play. The baserunner determines his path to the next base. (Think about the 'skunk in the outfield maneuver).

Either you missed what I was saying, or I missed what you were saying.

I agree with your last paragraph -- it didn't seem to be what I read before.

I haven't read all the other posts on this play, but I will say that you'll get different opinions on *when* to call "abandonment" depending on what source you read. Personally, I follow the "wait until it's clear to all" before I'll call it.

[catoblue]

Now kids, don't make stop this car to deal with you!!!!!

[bassfam11]

I was thinking it is time for them to get a room :Horse: