This happen last night

[crazyaboutcoues]

R3, one out, B1 strikes out. R3 thinks it's 3 outs and starts jogging towards the dugout between the pitchers mound and home plate. Just when he passes the foul line between home and first the coach tells him that it's only two outs and pushes him back towards the field., so he runs and touches home plate. So now the sh!t hits the fan. DC is screaming he should be out because he left the base line. OC and one of the board members argues that he is safe because no one tried to make a play on him. I called him out on Coaches interference for pushing back into play. Now lets say the coach didn't touch him, is he still out on a base line infraction? .

[Mr Umpire]

I would not call him out without the assistance b/c no one is making a play on him but this is a HTBT.

I think you got it right about the pushing him back on the field. So, he is out for that. But, if no one is making a play and he has not gone into the dugout and no assistance, then I would say he is ok.

Once he goes into the dugout, you have 2 choices. Consider him as touching HP and wait for the defense to appeal the miss. Or, call him out for abandonment. To me, this would depend upon how close he got to HP before he went towards the dugout.

[Umpire in Chief]

I think its a HTBT situation, but you made a sound call based on what you wrote, nobody could argue the fact that the kid was physically assisted by the coach.

[dawg-man]

Good call. Just curious as to what the catcher and pitcher were doing. One should have had the ball and pretty close to the runner. Never seen that one before.

[BrianC14]

I would not call him out without the assistance b/c no one is making a play on him but this is a HTBT.

I think you got it right about the pushing him back on the field. So, he is out for that. But, if no one is making a play and he has not gone into the dugout and no assistance, then I would say he is ok.

Once he goes into the dugout, you have 2 choices. Consider him as touching HP and wait for the defense to appeal the miss. Or, call him out for abandonment. To me, this would depend upon how close he got to HP before he went towards the dugout.

WHAT?!?

OK, so let's continue on this slippery slope.

Suppose the defense DOESN'T appeal - maybe they think it's also three outs, and they leave the field for their dugout; or maybe they just get ready for the next batter and F1 throws a pitch.

Under your scenario, you're now going to AWARD A RUN to R3's team for this? Understanding that now that the defense has left, or there has been an ensuing pitch to the next batter, no appeal CAN be made by them. So There are certainly not two options here.

You did have it half right. Once R3 hits the dugout, he's OUT for abandonment. There's no touch of home implied, and certainly no appeal necessary for it.

Edited May 29, 2009 by BrianC14

[BrianC14]

R3, one out, B1 strikes out. R3 thinks it's 3 outs and starts jogging towards the dugout between the pitchers mound and home plate. Just when he passes the foul line between home and first the coach tells him that it's only two outs and pushes him back towards the field., so he runs and touches home plate. So now the sh!t hits the fan. DC is screaming he should be out because he left the base line. OC and one of the board members argues that he is safe because no one tried to make a play on him. I called him out on Coaches interference for pushing back into play. Now lets say the coach didn't touch him, is he still out on a base line infraction? .

Good call on your situation, calling the out when the coach assisted the runner. (I'm getting a good chuckle over a board member trying to make your ruling for you... )

As previously mentioned, you can't call R3 out for the baseline infraction until someone tries to make a play on him. If he's that far off as you say, any attempt to tag him would result in an out being called.

What age group is this, anyway?

[Mr Umpire]

WHAT?!?

OK, so let's continue on this slippery slope.

Suppose the defense DOESN'T appeal - maybe they think it's also three outs, and they leave the field for their dugout; or maybe they just get ready for the next batter and F1 throws a pitch.

Under your scenario, you're now going to AWARD A RUN to R3's team for this? Understanding that now that the defense has left, or there has been an ensuing pitch to the next batter, no appeal CAN be made by them. So There are certainly not two options here.

You did have it half right. Once R3 hits the dugout, he's OUT for abandonment. There's no touch of home implied, and certainly no appeal necessary for it.

If he comes within 1 or 2 steps of HP and then turns toward the dugout, you are going to call an out for abandonment? How do you know he didn't try to touch it and just missed since the dugout is on the 1B side? This is why it depends on how close he got.

Who is awarding anything? If the defense doesn't catch it, you are going to award them an out b/c you felt it wasn't a valid attempt to touch HP? Who says it wasn't? Nothing says the runner has to go over the top of the base to be considered as touching it. He just has to be within a reasonable area of the base. I'd like to see you make that call on a runner coming to HP but misses it on the slide. He didn't go over top of it with his hand. And, who says he didn't slide to the side of it on purpose and wasn't actually trying to touch it. That is why I said it depends on how close he got. There is a difference between a miss and a "gross" miss. If he is within 1 or 2 steps, then I consider that a miss and appealable. If he clearly cuts across the infield, like in the OP, then that is a "gross" miss and called out for abandonment as soon as he gets to the dugout.

So, that is why it depends. If he comes within a reasonable distance of HP, then defense appeals. If not, out for abandonment which will probably be the more likely call since most won't come within a step or 2 while jogging to the dugout thinking they are out.

[BrianC14]

If he comes within 1 or 2 steps of HP and then turns toward the dugout, you are going to call an out for abandonment? How do you know he didn't try to touch it and just missed since the dugout is on the 1B side? This is why it depends on how close he got.

Who is awarding anything? If the defense doesn't catch it, you are going to award them an out b/c you felt it wasn't a valid attempt to touch HP? Who says it wasn't? Nothing says the runner has to go over the top of the base to be considered as touching it. He just has to be within a reasonable area of the base. I'd like to see you make that call on a runner coming to HP but misses it on the slide. He didn't go over top of it with his hand. And, who says he didn't slide to the side of it on purpose and wasn't actually trying to touch it. That is why I said it depends on how close he got. There is a difference between a miss and a "gross" miss. If he is within 1 or 2 steps, then I consider that a miss and appealable. If he clearly cuts across the infield, like in the OP, then that is a "gross" miss and called out for abandonment as soon as he gets to the dugout.

So, that is why it depends. If he comes within a reasonable distance of HP, then defense appeals. If not, out for abandonment which will probably be the more likely call since most won't come within a step or 2 while jogging to the dugout thinking they are out.

Read the OP. He's "between the mound and home plate".

The runner was not trying to score a run. He was leaving the field.

And on that you're going to score a run for R3 if the defense doesn't appeal?

[Mr Umpire]

If he clearly cuts across the infield, like in the OP, then that is a "gross" miss and called out for abandonment as soon as he gets to the dugout.

Which is why I made this statement.

[BrianC14]

Which is why I made this statement.

Which is why I said, "Read the OP".

The OP has nothing to do with a gross miss.

In the OP, R3 never got to the dugout.

[crazyaboutcoues]

It was 12U USSSA boys...

Brian I wouldn't have let gone that far I would have told the coaches that there are only two outs. I wouldn't have let the next half inning start.

The Defensive team just assumed it was three outs as well when the R3 started jogging to the dug-out, it wasn't until the OC yelled there's only two outs, that's when everyone started running. The catcher just rolled the ball towards the pitchers mound. It happen pretty fast and caught me off guard as well. By the time I referenced my indicator everyone was screaming. Luckly the OC interfered otherwise I probably would have called him out on a baseline infraction (wrong call).

It was pretty funny when the board member tried to come into the field, he is also the USSSA Director for SW New Mexico. I stopped him at the gate and told him to just relax and not to step onto the field. The look on his face was price:agasp_:less

[Mr Umpire]

Which is why I said, "Read the OP".

The OP has nothing to do with a gross miss.

In the OP, R3 never got to the dugout.

I feel this is going off in a different direction. My statements were for if he did make it to the dugout after I answered the initial question.

The initial question was "Would the runner be out for a baseline infraction without the assistance?" Of course, the answer was no unless he made it to the dugout. I answered the initial and provided additional info just in case something else happened instead of the OP which is possible.

I know what the OP said with my direct responses to it. Then, I provided info for if he actually did get to the dugout and no one told him to go back and touch HP.

[BrianC14]

It was 12U USSSA boys...

Brian I wouldn't have let gone that far I would have told the coaches that there are only two outs. I wouldn't have let the next half inning start.

The Defensive team just assumed it was three outs as well when the R3 started jogging to the dug-out, it wasn't until the OC yelled there's only two outs, that's when everyone started running. The catcher just rolled the ball towards the pitchers mound. It happen pretty fast and caught me off guard as well. By the time I referenced my indicator everyone was screaming. Luckly the OC interfered otherwise I probably would have called him out on a baseline infraction (wrong call).

It was pretty funny when the board member tried to come into the field, he is also the USSSA Director for SW New Mexico. I stopped him at the gate and told him to just relax and not to step onto the field. The look on his face was price:agasp_:less

Wow, you have to be careful with this... if there are runners on base, and you see the defense start to leave the field, in no way should you say anything here. Let the chips fall where they may in that situation.

I worked a game last summer where the defense left the field when there just two outs. I stepped to one side of the plate, and looked out at my partner, who was in 'B'. He didn't move, and neither of us said anything. Luckily, there were no runners on base (defense had just turned a double play); we waited for a minute, then - someone in the the defense's (oddly enough) dugout says "Hey, that's only two." And the OC comes out and says, "Yeah, that's only two out, blue!" (As his team is moving out of the dugout with gloves in hand.... heh heh). So I check w/ my partner, "Tom, do you have 2 outs?" Tom answers in the affirmative. I look at OC and ask, 'Then why is your team taking the field?" We end up bringing defense back out - but had there been runners on, the ball was still live, and you let them do what they are supposed to do. :wave:

Edited May 29, 2009 by BrianC14

[BrianC14]

I feel this is going off in a different direction. My statements were for if he did make it to the dugout after I answered the initial question.

The initial question was "Would the runner be out for a baseline infraction without the assistance?" Of course, the answer was no unless he made it to the dugout. I answered the initial and provided additional info just in case something else happened instead of the OP which is possible.

I know what the OP said with my direct responses to it. Then, I provided info for if he actually did get to the dugout and no one told him to go back and touch HP.

I think you're misunderstanding the concept of a gross miss in this play.

There is no 'gross miss' because R3 wasn't trying to reach home. This is a 12/under league, so I'll assume a 60' basepath and a 45' mound. If R3 is between home & the plate, he's about 20 feet off the route, wouldn't you agree? (e.g., he's got no intent of trying to reach home - he's leaving).

The idea of assuming (scoring) R3 touching home is way out of whack in this play. Doing so could turn a bad situation into a major stink-fest.

Again - how would explain that the run scored if the defense doesn't appeal?

How do justify that an appeal is even necessary? (Hint: there's no appeal necessary, because R3 didn't attempt to touch home, and this is not a gross miss).

Edited May 29, 2009 by BrianC14

[therefump]

HTBT. Of course. Seems to me a lot of nit picking on what was implied to be said vs. what he said in the original post. Wouldn't it be more prudent to ask questions before rendering a judgment on what was implied?

Having said that, I know that we umpires are required to make snap decisions. I would hope that here we have the luxury of taking our time.

[Mr Umpire]

I think you're misunderstanding the concept of a gross miss in this play.

There is no 'gross miss' because R3 wasn't trying to reach home.

The idea of assuming (scoring) R3 touching home is way out of whack in this play. Doing so could turn a bad situation into a major stink-fest.

Again - how would explain that the run scored if the defense doesn't appeal?

How do justify that an appeal is even necessary? (Hint: there's no appeal necessary, because R3 didn't attempt to touch home, and this is not a gross miss).

Call it what you want(cutting across the infield if you want to spell it out). But, the concept is the same. And, you keep going back to this play which I gave an answer to. Then, provided info just in case things don't occur EXACTLY in this play. I am not trying to apply nor did I imply to use any of the scenario of if the runner goes into the dugout for the OP. You are tying the 2 together, not me.

Not for the OP(scenario, if R3 goes into the dugout):

Did he miss it by a reasonable margin? If yes, defense appeals.

Or, did he miss it by going across the field? If yes, out for abandonment.

And, these 2 are for if the runner goes into the dugout, not for the OP.

For the OP:

If runner is assisted(which he was)? Out for assistance.

If runner is not assisted? Then, however the play turns out, that is how it happens. Whether out by tag or something else, or safe by getting to HP before tag.

[BrianC14]

Call it what you want(cutting across the infield if you want to spell it out). But, the concept is the same. And, you keep going back to this play which I gave an answer to. Then, provided info just in case things don't occur EXACTLY in this play. I am not trying to apply nor did I imply to use any of the scenario of if the runner goes into the dugout for the OP. You are tying the 2 together, not me.

Not for the OP(scenario, if R3 goes into the dugout):

Did he miss it by a reasonable margin? If yes, defense appeals.

Or, did he miss it by going across the field? If yes, out for abandonment.

And, these 2 are for if the runner goes into the dugout, not for the OP.

For the OP:

If runner is assisted(which he was)? Out for assistance.

If runner is not assisted? Then, however the play turns out, that is how it happens. Whether out by tag or something else, or safe by getting to HP before tag.

OK, you've now veered from the OP. Let's go with your scenarios.

Let's keep going on your concept... what are you going to do if the defense doesn't appeal what you've ruled as a 'gross miss' ? And now let's make it really interesting.... R3 represents what would be the winning run for the home team. This is the bottom of the 6th inning (it's 12/under age group).

Please explain how you would rule - you've already said that you'd consider R3 to have touched home plate as he cuts across the infield.

a) The defense can appeal this supposed 'gross miss', but let's say they don't (thinking as before, they believe the inning is over and so they leave the diamond. Remeber when they do leave, any appeal attempts are void).

So you've effectively scored the runner from third.

Is the game over? And please tell us how you'd announce this to the teams.

Edited May 29, 2009 by BrianC14

[mstaylor]

I think we are arguing passed each other. Mr Umpire was changing the sitch to make a point but aknowledged that in the OP it was a gross miss. If he had continued he would have been called out but the coach interceded and created an interference.

So in the OP it is a gross miss which would be adbandoment if he continues. It was called an out for coach interference which is correct. In the changed sitch, if he is close enough to the plate it is appealable. Does that cover it and are you both in agreement?

[Mr Umpire]

OK.

Then keep going on your concept... what are you going to do if the defense doesn't appeal this supposed 'gross miss' ? And now let's make it really interesting.... R3 represents what would be the winning run for the home team.

Please explain how you would rule - you've said that you'd consider R3 to have touched home plate.

a) The defense can appeal this supposed 'gross miss', but they don't (thinking as before, they think the inning is over and they leave the diamond. When they do leave, any appeal attempts are void).

So you've effectively scored the runner from third.

Is the game over? And please tell us how you'd announce this to the teams.

Or, did he miss it by going across the field? If yes, out for abandonment.

This covers the 'gross miss'. The appealable one I was referring to is if R3 makes a reasonable attempt to touch HP.

[Mr Umpire]

I think we are arguing passed each other. Mr Umpire was changing the sitch to make a point but aknowledged that in the OP it was a gross miss. If he had continued he would have been called out but the coach interceded and created an interference.

So in the OP it is a gross miss which would be adbandoment if he continues. It was called an out for coach interference which is correct. In the changed sitch, if he is close enough to the plate it is appealable. Does that cover it and are you both in agreement?

Exactly. I was not referring to the OP in my scenario. And, if there is a gross miss, then the runner is out for abandonment(not making the defense appeal on this) once he gets to the dugout. The defense has to appeal if there is a reasonable attempt to touch HP and the runner goes to the dugout(just like on any other normal play at the plate).

[noumpere]

As previously mentioned, you can't call R3 out for the baseline infraction until someone tries to make a play on him. If he's that far off as you say, any attempt to tag him would result in an out being called.

It doesn't matter how far off he is -- he gets three feet variance along a line from that spot to the base he attempts to reach.

[BrianC14]

This covers the 'gross miss'. The appealable one I was referring to is if R3 makes a reasonable attempt to touch HP.

Well now you've changed the situation to fit your 'gross miss' scenario.

If I have a runner who's obviously NOT trying to reach home, and he's just jogging toward his dugout "between the mound and home" - I'm not going to consider that as a gross miss. The reason being is that he's NOT intending to touch home, he's intending to go sit down.

So there's my take on it.

Now - you still haven't answered my earlier question... is the game over? (if defense doesn't appeal)

[mstaylor]

There were several posts while I was typing my overview but I think it os still relevant. There are three plays being discussed and you need to make sure which one you are referencing. I still think you are both saying the same thing but are missing the other's point.

[mstaylor]

Well now you've changed the situation to fit your 'gross miss' scenario.

If I have a runner who's obviously NOT trying to reach home, and he's just jogging toward his dugout "between the mound and home" - I'm not going to consider that as a gross miss. The reason being is that he's NOT intending to touch home, he's intending to go sit down.

So there's my take on it.

Now - you still haven't answered my earlier question... is the game over? (if defense doesn't appeal)

Brian:

Whether you call it it a gross miss or no attempt, it is amounting to the same thing, it os the same result.

[BrianC14]

It doesn't matter how far off he is -- he gets three feet variance along a line from that spot to the base he attempts to reach.

I think you've contradicted yourself here.

"It doesn't matter how far off he is..."

"...he gets three feet variance..."

He can move 150 feet off the baseline if he wants to... only when the defense initiates a play on him does that 3' variance come into play. The baserunner determines his path to the next base. (Think about the 'skunk in the outfield maneuver). :wave: