Possible OBS -> MC

[Velho]

Well that escalated quickly

[Replacematt]

This wouldn't be MC. This is USC/fighting.

[MadMax]

As @Replacematt implies, this can’t be MC; to wit, you (umpire) cannot call somebody Out for this, or award a/the Runner an advancement on this. This isn’t a play. 

Now sure, was there OBS? Very, very likely. If this had been 3- or 4-man, the underlying antics doesn’t progress to this point, or OBS is called. That is the shortfall of 2-man; it is (nearly) impossible to fully see and adjudge OBS on a play like this, especially at the Pro level, because of how (much) fast(er) the action occurs. 

But with the play well over, the only recourse you/we have is to formally warn and/or Eject. 

[Velho]

@Ms.Tescmacher - Take a note: Fire the headline writer.

15 minutes ago, MadMax said:

the only recourse you/we have is to formally warn and/or Eject.

Taking the general to the specific: is there any way you don't eject for the OP at any level?

16 minutes ago, MadMax said:

this can’t be MC; to wit, you (umpire) cannot call somebody Out for this, or award a/the Runner an advancement on this.

MC isn't always an out or advancement for the aggrieved, is it? Runner MC after scoring for example.

[Replacematt]

30 minutes ago, Velho said:

@Ms.Tescmacher - Take a note: Fire the headline writer.

Taking the general to the specific: is there any way you don't eject for the OP at any level?

MC isn't always an out or advancement for the aggrieved, is it? Runner MC after scoring for example.

No, there isn't always a penalty beside ejection, but it's moot, since this isn't MC. 

Are you really going to call R1 out if he retaliates in kind? You know what I'm doing as F3 with the tying run on base with two out in the bottom of the ninth (seventh.)
 

[MadMax]

23 minutes ago, Velho said:

Taking the general to the specific: is there any way you don't eject for the OP at any level?

Pros, and because you (umpire) didn’t see it.

4-man, or even 3-man, again, this doesn’t happen without being addressed leading up to the moment. 2-man… the big problem with this is we saw the haymaker, but we can’t hear what was said to spark it. What was said may have been just as egregious as the physical reaction. 

30 minutes ago, Velho said:

MC isn't always an out or advancement for the aggrieved, is it? Runner MC after scoring for example.

Somewhat. Malicious Contact is a component of a play, though… that an action occurred above-beyond-outside the components of an otherwise “routine play”. 

Let’s revisit the Brian McCann vs. Carlos Gomez confrontation… are we calling McCann for OBS? Are we calling Gomez Out for failure to touch home, because he sparked off a bench-clearing fight? Is his engagement with McCann MC? No. The reason I am pointing this out so particularly, is we need to separate MC and “fighting” or “brawling” into two separate silos. Sure, an act of MC may have caused the fight, but we need to not look for MC within a fight. 

The OP was a fight. In point of fact, despite OBS likely happening, there wasn’t any contact (of significance)… which kinda has to happen to be malicious. It’s not called Malicious Intent, it’s called Malicious Contact. 

[Velho]

34 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Taking the general to the specific: is there any way you don't eject for the OP at any level?

MC isn't always an out or advancement for the aggrieved, is it? Runner MC after scoring for example.

No, there isn't always a penalty beside ejection, but it's moot, since this isn't MC. 

Are you really going to call R1 out if he retaliates in kind? You know what I'm doing as F3 with the tying run on base with two out in the bottom of the ninth (seventh.)

I was talking about ejecting OP F3 for taking a swing at R1. Not sure how that turned into anything about R1.

[MadMax]

19 minutes ago, Velho said:

I was talking about ejecting OP F3 for taking a swing at R1. Not sure how that turned into anything about R1.

Because, rightly so, @Replacematt is addressing what could escalate by retaliation. In our exact OP, if we expand it a bit… what if F3 had tagged him hard, and R1 took exception to it, and after getting back to his feet, he swung at F3? 

We do have to look at context here. These are adults, and these are Pros (uppercase). We (as umpires) must adjudicate, but we cannot impose our own “moral and ethical standards” here, and we cannot expect the coaches (plural) to be “responsible for their players / team”. The League (uppercase) will sort out the details. If we’re Ejecting the F3 for the physical act of swinging at R1, we must consider, collectively, what caused it, and be transparent about it. The F3 (ejected) will likely claim R1 said or did something to cause his (re)action. Unless one of my partners saw or heard that cause, specifically, then I will express to the DTM that “We will note as much as we can to the League, and the League will address it.” 

[Velho]

17 minutes ago, MadMax said:

57 minutes ago, Velho said:

I was talking about ejecting OP F3 for taking a swing at R1. Not sure how that turned into anything about R1.

Because, rightly so, @Replacematt is addressing what could escalate by retaliation. In our exact OP, if we expand it a bit… what if F3 had tagged him hard, and R1 took exception to it, and after getting back to his feet, he swung at F3? 

We do have to look at context here. These are adults, and these are Pros (uppercase). We (as umpires) must adjudicate, but we cannot impose our own “moral and ethical standards” here

Interesting.

Any level besides Pro that trying to punch an opponent, regardless of reason, doesn't get an EJ?

Can you think of any other sport that allows it to go unpenalized* in game?

* Again, back to baseball having EJ as only immediate recourse

[MadMax]

2 minutes ago, Velho said:

Any level besides Pro that trying to punch an opponent, regardless of reason, doesn't get an EJ?

Not that I know of, no. Even pro (lowercase) or adult amateur, throwing a punch and/or retaliating (tackling, headlocking, etc) brings ejections, plural. 

10 minutes ago, Velho said:

Can you think of any other sport that allows it to go unpenalized* in game?

Oh sure! There’s been instances in the NBA and the NHL – both Pro (uppercase) – wherein, in the case of the NBA, punches are thrown, but nothing connected, and the conflict was neutralized. Sometimes those enactors have been ejected or removed, but they don’t manifest as free throws or ball possession (changing). In the NHL – different than minor-league hockey – fighting is… tolerated, to a point at which both participants are removed from the contest (5 minute major? 10 minute game misconduct?), but I think the removals / dismissals don’t affect the two clubs’ penalty status… unless of course, a foul is what sparked off the fight. 

[Velho]

10 minutes ago, MadMax said:

31 minutes ago, Velho said:

Can you think of any other sport that allows it to go unpenalized* in game?

Oh sure! There’s been instances in the NBA and the NHL – both Pro (uppercase) – wherein, in the case of the NBA, punches are thrown, but nothing connected, and the conflict was neutralized. Sometimes those enactors have been ejected or removed, but they don’t manifest as free throws or ball possession (changing). In the NHL – different than minor-league hockey – fighting is… tolerated, to a point at which both participants are removed from the contest (5 minute major? 10 minute game misconduct?), but I think the removals / dismissals don’t affect the two clubs’ penalty status… unless of course, a foul is what sparked off the fight

Not to get too far into mierenneuken but in NBA a thrown punch is EJ by rule (how it's done in practice is a different thing obviously) and NHL removes the players though they stay 5v5 as you allude.

Possibility for nothing in baseball is interesting to me.

I appreciate the conversation. Thanks.

[MadMax]

Wow. The AI overlords are listening! 

Here you’ve got INT (BR upon F1), MC, and fighting… during the play! 

 

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

Possibility for nothing in baseball is interesting to me.

Uhh...what? I think you misunderstood what was being said.

[JonnyCat]

27 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Here you’ve got INT (BR upon F1), MC, and fighting… during the play! 

Great clip! That was old school baseball at it's finest!