LL Balk or not

[DevildogUmp]

LL Rulebook, Intermediate or above:

R3, pitcher engages the rubber and is in his stretch. He looks over at 3rd and feints a throw (pumps his arm) without moving his feet. Do you have a balk? If you do, what rule are you using to back up the balk call?

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, DevildogUmp said:

LL Rulebook, Intermediate or above:

R3, pitcher engages the rubber and is in his stretch. He looks over at 3rd and feints a throw (pumps his arm) without moving his feet. Do you have a balk? If you do, what rule are you using to back up the balk call?

Even in rules codes where a feint to third is allowed, there must be a step (F1, must step, or step off; he does not need to fake with his arm). 
 

The play as described is a balk (I don’t know the LL specifics on feinting to third)

[Velho]

Feint to 3B with a step is legal in LL. From the LL RIM:

A pitcher is required to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but they are not required to throw

(except to first base) because. They step. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step

toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second,

turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal as long as the pitcher’s feint to 3rd base causes them

to disengage from the pitcher’s plate. It is not a balk.

[DevildogUmp]

18 hours ago, noumpere said:

Even in rules codes where a feint to third is allowed, there must be a step (F1, must step, or step off; he does not need to fake with his arm). 
 

The play as described is a balk (I don’t know the LL specifics on feinting to third)

@noumpere - the problem is that the LL rulebook does not address feints from the rubber. They rulebook only addresses a "step and throw to a base".

9 hours ago, Velho said:

Feint to 3B with a step is legal in LL. From the LL RIM:

A pitcher is required to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but they are not required to throw

(except to first base) because. They step. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step

toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second,

turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal as long as the pitcher’s feint to 3rd base causes them

to disengage from the pitcher’s plate. It is not a balk.

@Velho - That doesn't address a pitcher feinting to 3rd without a step. That just tells us that once he steps, he does not need to throw.

Nothing I have found in the rulebook, RIM, or Make the Right Call addresses a feint from the rubber without a step.

[jimurrayalterego]

57 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

@noumpere - the problem is that the LL rulebook does not address feints from the rubber. They rulebook only addresses a "step and throw to a base".

@Velho - That doesn't address a pitcher feinting to 3rd without a step. That just tells us that once he steps, he does not need to throw.

Nothing I have found in the rulebook, RIM, or Make the Right Call addresses a feint from the rubber without a step.

You have to go to MiLBUM or MLBUM which should guide you as LL mimics OBR in most, but not all cases.

[Velho]

45 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

That doesn't address a pitcher feinting to 3rd without a step. That just tells us that once he steps, he does not need to throw.

I follow wanting the explicit statement.

That said, looking at 8.05(c) comment point 4, if we ignore the typo, it says "they are not required to throw because they step". The wording is clunky (and I may be reading it wrong) but that's clear to me you have to step to fake a throw given how the section treats a feint as a type of throw where the ball isn't released. 

To Jimurray's point: find the basis for it being declared illegal to feint to 2B without a step and we can hook that back into LL explicitly or implicitly (since LL is OBR backed).

[Velho]

MLBUM says:

6.0.2(a)(3) is the same language as 8.05(c) above.

[DevildogUmp]

23 hours ago, Velho said:

I follow wanting the explicit statement.

That said, looking at 8.05(c) comment point 4, if we ignore the typo, it says "they are not required to throw because they step". The wording is clunky (and I may be reading it wrong) but that's clear to me you have to step to fake a throw given how the section treats a feint as a type of throw where the ball isn't released. 

To Jimurray's point: find the basis for it being declared illegal to feint to 2B without a step and we can hook that back into LL explicitly or implicitly (since LL is OBR backed).

@Velho The main reason I need an explicit statement is according to my Region, this is not a balk in LL. 

[Velho]

7 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

@Velho The main reason I need an explicit statement is according to my Region, this is not a balk in LL. 

Ohhhh... I thought may be you were preparing for a very pedantic and assertive coach.

To make sure I'm clear: Your Region is saying it's legal for the pitcher, while engaged and remaining engaged with the plate, to move only his arm in a throwing motion towards 3B without throwing the ball.

Further, if the pitcher does the same as above but throws the ball, it's a balk.

[jimurrayalterego]

29 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

@Velho The main reason I need an explicit statement is according to my Region, this is not a balk in LL. 

The LLGB has not kept up with OBR changes but one thing that has not changed in either book is the wording of stepping to a base when throwing there. So you would have to ask the "Region" if it is not a balk in MLB according to the same wording in their book. I'll leave it to you to then pursue, depending on their answer, further discussion/questioning with them regarding MLBUM guidance on the exact same wording in their book.