R2 - Inside move pickoff - R2 goes on F1 initial movement - BALK check on learning

[RBIbaseball]

I had this scenario in one of my games the other day (NHFS). I am confident I ruled on this correctly in my circumstance (example 1b. and I ruled it legal), but it got me thinking, what if F1 had done this/that...

R2. F1 performs "inside move" pickoff toward 2B. As F1 lifts free foot to begin pickoff, R2 takes off for 3B.

Please help me to further my confidence in understanding these scenarios (my understanding in bold):

 

1a. F1 completes "inside move" step directly toward 2B (direct to base, an otherwise normal move) and pivot foot disengages naturally - F1 then steps and throws to F5 for an out - LEGAL (feint to 2B satisfied, F1 is became a fielder)

1b. Same as above, but F1 keeps pivot foot on pitcher's plate, then steps directly toward 3B and throws to F5 for an out (pivot foot disengages naturally on throw to 3B) - LEGAL (feint to 2B satisfied, pickoff to 3B legally executed)

2. F1 completes "inside move" step directly toward 2B, and throws to F6 who was ~20 feet off the base (normal SS positioning), hoping F6 can relay to F5 for an out - LEGAL (feint to 2B satisfied regardless of throwing to F6)

3a. F1 completes "inside move" step directly toward 2B (pivot foot still engaged) and throws cross-body (side-arm) to F5 who is standing next to 3B - BALK (pickoff to 3B without stepping directly to the base)

3b. Same as above but F1 naturally disengages his pivot foot after stepping to second (swinging it around in line to throw to 3B) and throws without taking another step - BALK (pickoff to 3B without stepping directly to the base)

4a. F1 completes "inside move" step directly toward 2B (pivot foot still engaged) and throws cross-body (side-arm) to F5 who is ~25 feet up the baseline anticipating a tag on R2 - ????

4b. Same as above except F1 naturally disengages his pivot foot after stepping to second (swinging it around in line to throw to 3B) and throws without taking another step - ????

5. After beginning an "inside move" step toward 2B, F1 alters his balance point/momentum and finishes his step in a direction directly toward 3B, then throws for F5 for an out (pivot foot naturally disengages with throw to 3B) - BALK (pickoff to 3B without stepping directly to the base)

 

I believe in all these examples it should be the same answer in all codes, unless one of them classifies as a feint to 3B that I'm not seeing...

  

On 7/26/2017 at 7:29 PM, Senor Azul said:

From the 2014 PBUC (section 8.5, p. 90):

“There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pickoff at second base and seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.”

The identical text is also in the 2015 MLBUM (p. 65). You can also find the same interpretation in the Jaksa/Roder manual. And here is how it is explained in the 2013 WRIM (p. 104):

“Once the pitcher steps toward second base, he has fulfilled all of his requirements as a pitcher. He may then throw the ball to anywhere on the field without taking another step, except to another base…”

 

[BLWizzRanger]

12 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

I had this scenario in one of my games the other day (NHFS). I am confident I ruled on this correctly in my circumstance (example 1b. and I ruled it legal), but it got me thinking, what if F1 had done this/that...

R2. F1 performs "inside move" pickoff toward 2B. As F1 lifts free foot to begin pickoff, R2 takes off for 3B.

Please help me to further my confidence in understanding these scenarios (my understanding in bold):

 

1a. F1 completes "inside move" step directly toward 2B (direct to base, an otherwise normal move) and pivot foot disengages naturally - F1 then steps and throws to F5 for an out - LEGAL (feint to 2B satisfied, F1 is became a fielder)

1b. Same as above, but F1 keeps pivot foot on pitcher's plate, then steps directly toward 3B and throws to F5 for an out (pivot foot disengages naturally on throw to 3B) - LEGAL (feint to 2B satisfied, pickoff to 3B legally executed)

2. F1 completes "inside move" step directly toward 2B, and throws to F6 who was ~20 feet off the base (normal SS positioning), hoping F6 can relay to F5 for an out - LEGAL (feint to 2B satisfied regardless of throwing to F6)

3a. F1 completes "inside move" step directly toward 2B (pivot foot still engaged) and throws cross-body (side-arm) to F5 who is standing next to 3B - BALK (pickoff to 3B without stepping directly to the base)

3b. Same as above but F1 naturally disengages his pivot foot after stepping to second (swinging it around in line to throw to 3B) and throws without taking another step - BALK (pickoff to 3B without stepping directly to the base)

4a. F1 completes "inside move" step directly toward 2B (pivot foot still engaged) and throws cross-body (side-arm) to F5 who is ~25 feet up the baseline anticipating a tag on R2 - ????

4b. Same as above except F1 naturally disengages his pivot foot after stepping to second (swinging it around in line to throw to 3B) and throws without taking another step - ????

5. After beginning an "inside move" step toward 2B, F1 alters his balance point/momentum and finishes his step in a direction directly toward 3B, then throws for F5 for an out - BALK (pickoff to 3B without stepping directly to the base)

 

I believe in all these examples it should be the same answer in all codes, unless one of them classifies as a feint to 3B that I'm not seeing...

  

 

I'll bite. 

Everything above 3b, I agree with.

for 3b, I would have nothing as 'disengages his pivot foot' makes him an infielder.

4a, tougher one. this would be to 'make a play at an unoccupied base' but he is still engaged and doesn't step toward the unoccupied base.

4b, nothing as he disengaged.

for 5, yes, I would have a balk as the inside move, I picture, he took his non-pivot foot completely past the back edge of the plate and didn't go to second (feint or throw) or home.  Doesn't say he disengaged so I assume he is still in contact with the plate.

 

 

[RBIbaseball]

9 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I'll bite. 

Everything above 3b, I agree with.

for 3b, I would have nothing as 'disengages his pivot foot' makes him an infielder.

4a, tougher one. this would be to 'make a play at an unoccupied base' but he is still engaged and doesn't step toward the unoccupied base.

4b, nothing as he disengaged.

for 5, yes, I would have a balk as the inside move, I picture, he took his non-pivot foot completely past the back edge of the plate and didn't go to second (feint or throw) or home.  Doesn't say he disengaged so I assume he is still in contact with the plate.

 

 

And here is how it is explained in the 2013 WRIM (p. 104):

“Once the pitcher steps toward second base, he has fulfilled all of his requirements as a pitcher. He may then throw the ball to anywhere on the field without taking another step, except to another base…”

On 3b. I look at the above interpretation. In theory he has disengaged but - during that movement - has he not merely just stepped toward 2B and threw to 3B (BALK)? I believe that is why the 2013 WRIM specifically says "except to another base". And would require an additional step in any direction to throw freely as a fielder.

 

On 5, yes he stayed engaged. But I would add, I don't think your qualifier of "he took his non-pivot foot completely past the back edge of the plate and didn't go to second" actually matters. Even if his free foot only moved 6 inches toward second (before the balance/momentum change to 3B) then he hasn't stepped directly toward 3B - therefore a BALK.

[noumpere]

5 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

And here is how it is explained in the 2013 WRIM (p. 104):

“Once the pitcher steps toward second base, he has fulfilled all of his requirements as a pitcher. He may then throw the ball to anywhere on the field without taking another step, except to another base…”

On 3b. I look at the above interpretation. In theory he has disengaged but - during that movement - has he not merely just stepped toward 2B and threw to 3B (BALK)? I believe that is why the 2013 WRIM specifically says "except to another base". And would require an additional step in any direction to throw freely as a fielder.

 

On 5, yes he stayed engaged. But I would add, I don't think your qualifier of "he took his non-pivot foot completely past the back edge of the plate and didn't go to second" actually matters. Even if his free foot only moved 6 inches toward second (before the balance/momentum change to 3B) then he hasn't stepped directly toward 3B - therefore a BALK.

3b, 4a, 4b area ll balks for the same reason.

 

5 is legal.

 

This is from NCAA, but it applies at all levels:

The pitcher, while touching the pitcher’s rubber, must step toward the
base, preceding or simultaneous with any move toward that base� The
pitcher is committed, upon raising the lead leg, to throw to the base being
faced, to second base or to the plate� When throwing or feinting a throw
to a base not being faced, the pitcher must step immediately, directly and
gain ground toward that base�

 

The bold part applies -- until the free foot passes the rubber..  I don't read that in your play, nor do I see any other commitment to second.

[maven]

3b and 4a become easier if we remember that, when engaged, F1 may do just 3 things:

1. Pitch to the batter
2. Disengage
3. Step and throw/feint to a base

#3 requires stepping to the base and throwing/feinting a throw to that same base.

I have him disengaged in 4b, so legal.

[RBIbaseball]

19 hours ago, noumpere said:

The pitcher, while touching the pitcher’s rubber, must step toward the
base, preceding or simultaneous with any move toward that base� The
pitcher is committed, upon raising the lead leg, to throw to the base being
faced, to second base or to the plate� When throwing or feinting a throw
to a base not being faced, the pitcher must step immediately, directly and
gain ground toward that base�

 

The bold part applies -- until the free foot passes the rubber..  I don't read that in your play, nor do I see any other commitment to second.

 

19 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

for 5, yes, I would have a balk as the inside move, I picture, he took his non-pivot foot completely past the back edge of the plate and didn't go to second (feint or throw) or home.  Doesn't say he disengaged so I assume he is still in contact with the plate.

 

 

Okay. So I guess I knew about the foot crossing the rubber committing the pitcher to go home (or to 2B), but I suppose I thought there was a difference between a pitcher lifting his leg up and moving it backwards a bit AS they were stepping toward 1B / 3B (base they are facing), and a pitcher starting to spin/pivot around on an inside move.... ie. the latter would result in a balk, regardless of if the free foot passed the rubber (the key difference being his body is also spinning around - but I guess that is not always the case).

So it 5. it is important to distinguish whether F1's free foot came passed the rubber (balk) or if it didn't (legal). Please tell me if I understand that correctly.

[RBIbaseball]

17 hours ago, maven said:

3b and 4a become easier if we remember that, when engaged, F1 may do just 3 things:

1. Pitch to the batter
2. Disengage
3. Step and throw/feint to a base

#3 requires stepping to the base and throwing/feinting a throw to that same base.

I have him disengaged in 4b, so legal.

For some reason I hadn't connected that bolded part together, previous to you spelling it out. That was helpful.

BUT.... I'm not sure I understand your calls...

 

If my reading comprehension is up to par, I have you calling:

3a BALK

3b BALK

4a BALK

4b LEGAL

 

Assuming I got that correct, I don't understand why you have 4b a LEGAL disengage (F1 is a fielding throw to  F5), but you don't have 3b a LEGAL disengage (F1 is a fielder throw to 3B). The pitcher does the exact same thing in both scenarios, except for 3a/3b he throws to F5 who is standing next to 3B, and in 4a/4b he throws to F5 ~25 feet up the baseline.

[maven]

Sorry, 4b is a balk too.

[RBIbaseball]

1 hour ago, maven said:

Sorry, 4b is a balk too.

If I'm understanding correctly, 4b is a balk because F1 stepped toward 2B and threw toward F5? 

AND... if F1 had taken an additional step, no matter which direction/size, then F1 could have then thrown to anywhere on the field?  Since they were legally disengaged from the "inside move" feint?