would you allow it

[carolinablue]

Middle school game. Close game, HT had R2 and R3 a possible bunt/squeeze situation, so there was alot of signals being given between each pitch. Batter would step out with one foot to get the signal and while this was happening F1 would come to the set position. He never made a quick pitch but HC said it was forcing his batter to rush to get ready and didn't like it. I could not think of any rule that said a pitcher could not do this as long as he wasn't making a quick pitch. Would you allow the pitcher to do this ?

[JaxRolo]

As I see it sounds legal. I would allow it.

[Guest]

Allow it, but have hawk-eyes for a quick pitch / flinch so you can balk the pitcher.

If the offensive coach complains, you have a simple answer: It actually works in your favour because I will protect your batter until he is ready. The longer a pitcher is set, the more likely he is to balk.

[Dragon29]

If the offensive coach complains, you have a simple answer: It actually works in your favour because I will protect your batter until he is ready. The longer a pitcher is set, the more likely he is to balk.

I would not say this to a manager. It sounds too much like you're trying to talk him out of complaining when in actuality, he has no valid complaint in the first place.

As others have said, prevent the Quick Pitch. You can do this easily by holding up the 'stop' sign to F1 until you feel the batter is ready. If he starts his motion while you have the 'stop' sign up, call 'Time' and explain to him what the 'stop' sign means.

[Guest]

If the offensive coach complains, you have a simple answer: It actually works in your favour because I will protect your batter until he is ready. The longer a pitcher is set, the more likely he is to balk.

As others have said, prevent the Quick Pitch. You can do this easily by holding up the 'stop' sign to F1 until you feel the batter is ready. If he starts his motion while you have the 'stop' sign up, call 'Time' and explain to him what the 'stop' sign means.

If you do that, you will have a SH*#storm on your hands faster than you can shake a stick at. What happens when the pitcher balks or throws to a base and either throws it away or picks off a runner? You have to put the runner back. Because...

Holding up the "stop sign" with a live ball is calling time. The only time you should be using the stop sign is when you are preparing to put a dead ball back into play.

And for what its worth, I don't see the validity of your point. How often do we have to listen to arguments that have no legs to stand on from coaches? Though I do realize I was unclear - I would stop / limit the explanation to "I will protect your batter until he is ready."

[carolinablue]

I wouldn't say he had no real complaint at all. I understand his point about the batter may be or feel rushed in that situation.

[Mr Umpire]

But, his batter's comfortability is of no concern. All that is of value is if there is a violation of the rules. There isn't one yet. It is, as coaches call it, gamesmanship.

I would not put my hand up. If F1 begins to pitch, I would prevent it then. I have only had 1 pitcher not give a chance and called a quick pitch. But, in general, I have had enough time to call "Time" and prevent it. Also, I would not tell a manager "I will protect his batter until he is ready". All I would say is "The pitcher is doing nothing illegal." That way, if I don't call something he thinks I should, I won't hear "But you said you would not allow the pitcher to pitch until my batter is ready." What determines if a batter is ready? Who knows but if a batter has had enough time to get ready, then the pitcher can pitch.

Keep it short and say nothing which may back you into a corner. Simply say "The pitcher is doing nothing illegal." and stop the manager there b/c he will (hopefully) realize he has no complaint right now since he has no rule to use.

[SnareDrum]

I'd allow it. The evolution and courtesy of the game allows the batter to keep one foot in the box to take signs or a breath, and if the umpire desires he can hold up the "please don't pitch" or Stop Sign especially if the pitcher comes set and looks like he's ready to pitch. Since the ball is live, a balk possibility exists and a smart and well-coached pitcher will either wait or step off... or try a pick-off. It is not time or dead ball, because if it was I'd call "TIME". I can't imagine calling Time or Dead Ball every time a batter stepped out with a foot to take a sign. This isn't basketball, so the one hand up stop sign isn't timeout. (I was even taught long ago that the stop sign, i.e.: "please don't pitch yet", when the ball is live and not coming off of a dead ball, should be given with the left hand.)

In the OP, I'd say all good. Just watch for the balk or quick pitch since the ball is live.

[noumpere]

Talk to the catcher and tell him that while you appreciate him working quickly he needs to wait until the batter is ready before giving the signs. And the pitcher doing this wouldnt be allowed at higher levels.

Where is the HS restriction on quick pitches. I couldnt find it in a quick skim of the book.

[catsbackr]

I'd allow it. The evolution and courtesy of the game allows the batter to keep one foot in the box to take signs or a breath, and if the umpire desires he can hold up the "please don't pitch" or Stop Sign especially if the pitcher comes set and looks like he's ready to pitch. Since the ball is live, a balk possibility exists and a smart and well-coached pitcher will either wait or step off... or try a pick-off. It is not time or dead ball, because if it was I'd call "TIME". I can't imagine calling Time or Dead Ball every time a batter stepped out with a foot to take a sign. This isn't basketball, so the one hand up stop sign isn't timeout. (I was even taught long ago that the stop sign, i.e.: "please don't pitch yet", when the ball is live and not coming off of a dead ball, should be given with the left hand.)

In the OP, I'd say all good. Just watch for the balk or quick pitch since the ball is live.

The ball is either live or dead, period. There is not another option.

Talking with the catcher will clear up the problem.

[JaxRolo]

The ball is either live or dead, period. There is not another option.

I agree. Our HS Association teaches us that if you hold your hand up its like calling time. Nothing else can happen till you put it back in play.

[sdix00]

I'd allow it. The evolution and courtesy of the game allows the batter to keep one foot in the box to take signs or a breath, and if the umpire desires he can hold up the "please don't pitch" or Stop Sign especially if the pitcher comes set and looks like he's ready to pitch. Since the ball is live, a balk possibility exists and a smart and well-coached pitcher will either wait or step off... or try a pick-off. It is not time or dead ball, because if it was I'd call "TIME". I can't imagine calling Time or Dead Ball every time a batter stepped out with a foot to take a sign. This isn't basketball, so the one hand up stop sign isn't timeout. (I was even taught long ago that the stop sign, i.e.: "please don't pitch yet", when the ball is live and not coming off of a dead ball, should be given with the left hand.)

In the OP, I'd say all good. Just watch for the balk or quick pitch since the ball is live.

Roger -

When the umpire holds up the Stop Sign, THE BALL IS DEAD, by rule.

SECTION 1 DEAD BALL

ART. 1 . . . Ball becomes dead immediately when:

h. the umpire handles a live ball or calls “Time†for inspecting the ball or for

any other reason, including items in Section 2 or gives the “Do Not Pitch

Signal†or inadvertently announces “Foul†on a ball that touches the

ground;

The pitcher can not pitch, but he also cannot pick off, or balk.

Your better coaches know this and will absolutely pull this card out when it benefits them. This same coach is also watching you to make sure you put the ball back in play after each Foul Ball. If his runner is picked off after a foul, he will calmly walk out to you, with a smirk.

A. Right arm straight out front with palm outward and fingers up — signifies do not pitch, the ball is dead.

[Dragon29]

If the offensive coach complains, you have a simple answer: It actually works in your favour because I will protect your batter until he is ready. The longer a pitcher is set, the more likely he is to balk.

As others have said, prevent the Quick Pitch. You can do this easily by holding up the 'stop' sign to F1 until you feel the batter is ready. If he starts his motion while you have the 'stop' sign up, call 'Time' and explain to him what the 'stop' sign means.

If you do that, you will have a SH*#storm on your hands faster than you can shake a stick at. What happens when the pitcher balks or throws to a base and either throws it away or picks off a runner? You have to put the runner back. Because...

Holding up the "stop sign" with a live ball is calling time. The only time you should be using the stop sign is when you are preparing to put a dead ball back into play.

And for what its worth, I don't see the validity of your point. How often do we have to listen to arguments that have no legs to stand on from coaches? Though I do realize I was unclear - I would stop / limit the explanation to "I will protect your batter until he is ready."

OK - I know I'm coming back a bit later here, but . . .

ump_24 - I did the same thing you said you did in that my description was not 100% complete. When I wrote 'prevent the Quick Pitch', what I meant is to hold up the 'Stop' sign only if F1 is starting to quick pitch. And, I don't think you're opening yourself up to a SH*#storm doing that; maybe you would if you did it as often as it appears you thought I meant for it to be done. (my bad)

Wasn't trying to make a 'point' w/the comment re:the coach having no valid complaint - my main thrust in that statement was to avoid validating his complaint with an unnecessaily lengthy response.

[SnareDrum]

DIX: Thank you! Kick taken and error corrected. Much rather brain fart here than in a game. That's what this Empire is for and I'll add that to my own "Myth/Not a Myth" list soon.

But by not vocalizing "Time" and making the assumption that all eyes are glued on PU, I believe that some occasional craziness could occur. If there's "time", the ball is dead... But the runners don' t return and touch (as they're supposed to?). Batter just makes his preps and we move on. And if it's a dead-ball, the batter should be able to step out of the box all the way with no problems. That may just be a mechanic or clarification of the future as it's seems to have fallen by the wayside... Let's save that discussion of waysides for another time.

I always, after every foul or dead ball, and after all are ready after Time has been called, go through the process of putting the ball in play as the PU. It's a bit of a basic routine for me and there are no smirking coaches. I also peek at the runners to make sure they're returned and touched. Habit. As a former coach, I've "smirked" a couple of good umpires on that one.

[JaxRolo]

I know I have learned a lot by posting my errant ways on this board. And believe me they have been numerous.

What do you mean by "I also peek at the runners to make sure they're returned and touched." And if they haven't what do you do?

[Dragon29]

What do you mean by "I also peek at the runners to make sure they're returned and touched." And if they haven't what do you do?

I'll answer for Roger - If they're far enough off the bag, you tell 'em to go back. The rule requires they re-touch, but we all know they're not going all the way back. For me, as long as they're not off any further than a normal lead-off, I'm puttin' the ball back into play.

[JaxRolo]

What do you mean by "I also peek at the runners to make sure they're returned and touched." And if they haven't what do you do?

I'll answer for Roger - If they're far enough off the bag, you tell 'em to go back. The rule requires they re-touch, but we all know they're not going all the way back. For me, as long as they're not off any further than a normal lead-off, I'm puttin' the ball back into play.

Thanks,

I just wanted to make sure he wasn't OOO. And making them go back all the way every single time.

[carolinablue]

Thanks for the replies. While, as said before, it's not illegal but IMHO it's a little bush. I know that's none of my concern as an umpire and this is possibly something that at higher levels the players will handle themselves on the field but I was trying to find the best way to handle this situation. I did not want to call time between every pitch but I certainly didn't want to call a game winning balk late in a close game either. However, like we have discussed numerous times before, that's why we make the big bucks and sometimes you just have to umpire.

[SnareDrum]

I know I have learned a lot by posting my errant ways on this board. And believe me they have been numerous.

What do you mean by "I also peek at the runners to make sure they're returned and touched." And if they haven't what do you do?

It's the rule but it's in there that base runners must retouch after a dead-ball. I think something close to the quote is: "If a foul ball is not caught the runners return. The umpire shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases." I do nothing except that. (As BU, I have whispered to a young runner to get in the habit of touching up after a foul. I've also caught a coach at a half-inning and asked him to remind his runners of the same thing, but only if they've been way off.) There's no penalty or consequence that I'm aware of so generally if their somewhere in the proximity of the bag, we're good to go...(Category: "Spirit of the Rules") ---Check RunnersFieldersPitcherBatterCatcher "Play!" ) It also re-super-imposes in my mind before the pitch where the runners are.

The situation was in high-school, my playing days, where our R3 had an 8-10 foot lead and a foul ball went OOP and he just stayed there. Next pitch was a line drive single to score the lead run. Their coach pops out and appeals that the runner didn't retouch after the dead ball. My coach said something like "WTF?... The Umpires, some good old timers, looked a little confused at first. They huddled up, and came back. They agreed. There was no retouch. BUT, there was also no penalty for not doing so. Their coach goes crazy because he wanted the out (he had done this before and talked the blues into it). One of those old timers was one of my first instructors, and he said that the reason they put that in there was to help prevent an Umpire from putting the ball back in play too soon and causing a runner to get tagged or picked-off. I was always taught to go back and touch after a foul, I didn't know why until then.

[sdix00]

I know I have learned a lot by posting my errant ways on this board. And believe me they have been numerous.

What do you mean by "I also peek at the runners to make sure they're returned and touched." And if they haven't what do you do?

It's the rule but it's in there that base runners must retouch after a dead-ball. I think something close to the quote is: "If a foul ball is not caught the runners return. The umpire shall not put the ball in play until all runners have retouched their bases." I do nothing except that. (As BU, I have whispered to a young runner to get in the habit of touching up after a foul. I've also caught a coach at a half-inning and asked him to remind his runners of the same thing, but only if they've been way off.) There's no penalty or consequence that I'm aware of so generally if their somewhere in the proximity of the bag, we're good to go...(Category: "Spirit of the Rules") ---Check RunnersFieldersPitcherBatterCatcher "Play!" ) It also re-super-imposes in my mind before the pitch where the runners are.

The situation was in high-school, my playing days, where our R3 had an 8-10 foot lead and a foul ball went OOP and he just stayed there. Next pitch was a line drive single to score the lead run. Their coach pops out and appeals that the runner didn't retouch after the dead ball. My coach said something like "WTF?... The Umpires, some good old timers, looked a little confused at first. They huddled up, and came back. They agreed. There was no retouch. BUT, there was also no penalty for not doing so. Their coach goes crazy because he wanted the out (he had done this before and talked the blues into it). One of those old timers was one of my first instructors, and he said that the reason they put that in there was to help prevent an Umpire from putting the ball back in play too soon and causing a runner to get tagged or picked-off. I was always taught to go back and touch after a foul, I didn't know why until then.

I don't have the book in front of me, but Baseball Rules Illustrated cites an example where a runner would simply walk over a few feet from the next base while the ball is dead, then PU would put the ball back in play and the runner would simply take a couple more steps and "steal" the advance base. The rule was presumably added to prevent this.

[SnareDrum]

Seems they took care of negative advantages taken by both the offense AND defense. Baseball Rules History!!

[mstaylor]

This situation s a common occurance in 13/14 baseball and JV baseball. Usually after that they learn to play baseball and quit the cute games. As already said the pitcher isn't doing anything illegal, yet. If the OM complains about him simply tell him you will balk any quick pitch. Give the batter the benefit of the doubt, if the pitcher balks in the winning run then that is a lesson for him to learn. If you don't balk him then you aren't treating the offense fairly. As to the holding up your hand, do it as little as possible. It is time and is something I almost never do. I used to with young kids but I don't even do that anymore.

[SnareDrum]

As to the holding up your hand, do it as little as possible. It is time and is something I almost never do. I used to with young kids but I don't even do that anymore.

Excellent!