Possible illegal pitch??-windup

[White47]

 

Ok so have a pitcher that is drastically changing his wind up methods. Some times he will start his delivery and almost stop others times he speeds threw it so fast I can barely get set. Everything he was doing was legal by itself just didn't seem right to me when everything was put together. I didn't call anything or even say anything to him, and no one complained just didn't sit well. Illegal pitch maybe? Or just nothing.

 

 

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[basejester]

Odd is not illegal.

 

[White47]

Yea, the kid was really good at mixing his deliveries up from both pitching positions. The windup stuff felt kinda like a quick pitch, but it wasn't really bothering the other team because they where hitting pretty well. Like you said odd, not illegal. Thanks.


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[grayhawk]

45 minutes ago, Jwwhite47 said:

 

Ok so have a pitcher that is drastically changing his wind up methods. Some times he will start his delivery and almost stop others times he speeds threw it so fast I can barely get set. Everything he was doing was legal by itself just didn't seem right to me when everything was put together. I didn't call anything or even say anything to him, and no one complained just didn't sit well. Illegal pitch maybe? Or just nothing.

 

There is your answer.  We must evaluate the legality of each, individual delivery as it happens.  How he delivered on the last pitch is irrelevant to the current pitch or any following pitches.

[White47]

There is your answer.  We must evaluate the legality of each, individual delivery as it happens.  How he delivered on the last pitch is irrelevant to the current pitch or any following pitches.

I agree 100% with original scenario, but let me play devils advocate.
New scenario:
Runner on third. Let's say the pitcher has been doing the double set the whole game (which by the books is probably a balk, but no one call especially MLB guys.) runner takes off for home, and this time the pitcher only single sets and goes home to retire the runner. Got a balk?
Not trying to argue just running with a thought?

[grayhawk]

7 minutes ago, Jwwhite47 said:

 

I agree 100% with original scenario, but let me play devils advocate.
New scenario:
Runner on third. Let's say the pitcher has been doing the double set the whole game (which by the books is probably a balk, but no one call especially MLB guys.) runner takes off for home, and this time the pitcher only single sets and goes home to retire the runner. Got a balk?
Not trying to argue just running with a thought?

 

If he came to a discernible stop, why would I balk him?  This concept of "he does it every time" is irrelevant.  If a pitcher throws 100 pitches in a game, he can use 100 different deliveries as long as each is legal.  He can also use 99 of the same delivery and 1 that is different, as long as each is legal.

BTW, I wouldn't allow a double set in any case.

[johnnyg08]

This is why it is so important to understand your terminology. Let's say coach comes out and agrees with you...but thinks it's illegal.  How are you going to explain it? 

Are you now going to disallow or penalize something that is legal, but odd? 

This is where knowing your terminology is vital to good officiating.

[basejester]

16 hours ago, Jwwhite47 said:

 

I agree 100% with original scenario, but let me play devils advocate.
New scenario:
Runner on third. Let's say the pitcher has been doing the double set the whole game (which by the books is probably a balk, but no one call especially MLB guys.) runner takes off for home, and this time the pitcher only single sets and goes home to retire the runner. Got a balk?
Not trying to argue just running with a thought?

I think we need to be calling all those start/stop balks throughout the game.  I find the current MLB situation to be ridiculous and in need of a clarification.  Pitchers, imho, shouldn't be allowed to simulate or feint the set position.  And no, I don't want to hear that he's still moving because he's twitching a butt hair. 

[soupcan]

What is the correct protocol for a quick pitch? I called one the other night as the pitcher was hurrying through his windup to catch the batter off balance. I thought this was a POE a few years ago as it was deemed "dangerous and discouraged".

Thoughts or experiences?

[ElkOil]

7 minutes ago, soupcan said:

What is the correct protocol for a quick pitch? I called one the other night as the pitcher was hurrying through his windup to catch the batter off balance. I thought this was a POE a few years ago as it was deemed "dangerous and discouraged".

Thoughts or experiences?

It's no different than any other illegal pitch: without runners on, award a ball to the batter; with runners it's a balk.

HOWEVER, we got in a pretty lengthy conversation about this last year on this forum in which many of us felt like simply killing the pitch by calling time was more appropriate than allowing it to continue into a pitch and balk situation.

[ElkOil]

On 4/27/2017 at 3:53 PM, White47 said:

Yea, the kid was really good at mixing his deliveries up from both pitching positions. The windup stuff felt kinda like a quick pitch, but it wasn't really bothering the other team because they where hitting pretty well. Like you said odd, not illegal. Thanks.


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How it felt and what it actually was may be two different things. Remove your emotions and instead view this through the lens of objectivity. Was he quick pitching or wasn't he? What was he actually doing? Your feelings are irrelevant since you have to apply fact-based decision-making.

[soupcan]

9 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

It's no different than any other illegal pitch: without runners on, award a ball to the batter; with runners it's a balk.

HOWEVER, we got in a pretty lengthy conversation about this last year on this forum in which many of us felt like simply killing the pitch by calling time was more appropriate than allowing it to continue into a pitch and balk situation.

I guess my question was more of when is quick pitch called and when does it just seem odd. My determination was that the batter (and myself) were caught off guard by the action so I called it a quick pitch. Does that seem correct?

[ElkOil]

12 hours ago, soupcan said:

I guess my question was more of when is quick pitch called and when does it just seem odd. My determination was that the batter (and myself) were caught off guard by the action so I called it a quick pitch. Does that seem correct?

Your answer lies in answering this: Why were you caught off guard? Was it because you weren't watching him and he did something unexpected, or was it because he started his delivery before the batter was ready?

[VolUmp]

On 5/25/2017 at 1:18 PM, ElkOil said:

Your answer lies in answering this: Why were you caught off guard?

Was it because you weren't watching him and he did something unexpected, or was it because he started his delivery before the batter was ready?

^^^^^THIS ^^^^^

In OBR (yes, I realize this a FED thread), there's language about a pitcher not being allowed to vary his wind up OR set deliveries in quick fashion to purposely catch a batter off guard. The consensus is, if the batter is set, any legal delivery is fair game.

MLB is PATHETIC at calling balks … not just with R3, but with Kershaw's double set, any pitcher with a "name" blowing through a set, and even Rookies who "wow" the crowd with a new and brilliant move to 1B (albeit totally illegal).

**See Dodgers' Julio Urias.  His "move" is a balk … 90 out of 100 times, yet it gets called 5 out of 100 times at best.  It's wrong.

If I were his Manager I'd encourage him to keep using that move until Rob Manfred does something about it.

It amazes me that Cueto gets called for balks, but he BEGS for them with all his shenanigans.

It makes it hell on FED and NCAA officials who will call balks when they don't call them in THE SHOW.