Does a Home Run Negate a "Force" Play?

[Nafxos]

Saw this question on another forum, and wasn't satisfied with the explanations. OBR. Bases loaded, 2 outs, batter hits a home run, R2 misses 3rd, defense properly appeals. How many runs score? If R2's out is considered a force out, no runs would score.  If not, then R3 would score but R1 and BR would not.  In looking at the exceptions in 5.08(a), I think this is exception #3, not exception #2. Am I wrong?

[Rich Ives]

10 minutes ago, Nafxos said:

Saw this question on another forum, and wasn't satisfied with the explanations. OBR. Bases loaded, 2 outs, batter hits a home run, R2 misses 3rd, defense properly appeals. How many runs score? If R2's out is considered a force out, no runs would score.  If not, then R3 would score but R1 and BR would not.  In looking at the exceptions in 5.08(a), I think this is exception #3, not exception #2. Am I wrong?

None.  No run can score if the third out is on a force play, or by the batter-runner before touching first base.This play is exception #2 in the rule.

OBR Approved rulings:

APPROVED RULING: Two out, Jones on second, Smith
on first and batter, Brown, hits home run inside the park.
All three runs cross the plate. But Jones missed third
base, and on appeal is declared out. Three outs. Smith’s
and Brown’s runs are voided. No score on the play.

APPROVED RULING: Two out, bases full, batter hits
home run over fence. Batter, on appeal, is declared out
for missing first base. Three outs. No run counts.

[Replacematt]

Yes, you are incorrect. R2 is forced to 3B. thus an appeal on him for missing it is a force out. No runs score. If this were exception #3, R3 would still score.

[Nafxos]

6 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

None.  No run can score if the third out is on a force play, or by the batter-runner before touching first base.

OBR Approved rulings:

APPROVED RULING: Two out, Jones on second, Smith
on first and batter, Brown, hits home run inside the park.
All three runs cross the plate. But Jones missed third
base, and on appeal is declared out. Three outs. Smith’s
and Brown’s runs are voided. No score on the play.

APPROVED RULING: Two out, bases full, batter hits
home run over fence. Batter, on appeal, is declared out
for missing first base. Three outs. No run counts.

Thanks! My only question is that the case described is subtly different from approved ruling #1 above. Does it matter if the ball goes over the fence? In the approved ruling it's an inside the park HR, so that makes sense to me as exception #2 in 5.09(a). The second example above is clearly exception #1. But is there any case play or approved ruling that addresses a runner missing the base he was "forced" to on an over-the-fence HR? That's the crux of my question - is the next base still a "force" in that situation, or is it now an "award" and thus treated differently?

[maven]

A force play is so called because the runner (s) are forced to advance to the next base by the batter becoming a runner.

So, is this still a force play, even though the ball is dead?

[indianaumpire15]

42 minutes ago, maven said:

A force play is so called because the runner (s) are forced to advance to the next base by the batter becoming a runner.

So, is this still a force play, even though the ball is dead?

What is your opinion @maven ?  Is it still a force play or a dead ball award?

[Replacematt]

19 minutes ago, indianaumpire15 said:

What is your opinion @maven ?  Is it still a force play or a dead ball award?

It's both. 

[Rich Ives]

24 minutes ago, indianaumpire15 said:

What is your opinion @maven ?  Is it still a force play or a dead ball award?

Opinion not needed. It is. The runner was forced to advance due to the batter advancing.

 

5.08 (4.09) How a Team Scores
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

See anything that exempts a runner if the ball is dead?

 

To reinforce:

Rule 5.09(c)(2) Comment (Rule 7.10(b) Comment): PLAY—(A) Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead)—he may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second but if he touches second he may not return to first and if defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.

Ball is dead - appeal is upheld.

[Nafxos]

Rich - I really appreciate the comments and I am not trying to be obtuse here, but I'm still not seeing anything explicit in the rules or the commentary that convinces me that R2 missing 3rd on the over-the-fence HR is a force out upon proper appeal.  I see it on the inside-the-park HR, because everyone is forced to move up one base when the batter hit the ball. But on the over-the-fence HR, we now have a dead ball award of home for everybody.  Yes, the runners still must touch the bases in order.  And yes, the defense can appeal a missed base.  But I can't make the connection that with bases loaded, if R2 misses 3rd and is properly appealed, that was a force and R3 can't score.

 

[ALStripes17]

Rich - I really appreciate the comments and I am not trying to be obtuse here, but I'm still not seeing anything explicit in the rules or the commentary that convinces me that R2 missing 3rd on the over-the-fence HR is a force out upon proper appeal.  I see it on the inside-the-park HR, because everyone is forced to move up one base when the batter hit the ball. But on the over-the-fence HR, we now have a dead ball award of home for everybody.  Yes, the runners still must touch the bases in order.  And yes, the defense can appeal a missed base.  But I can't make the connection that with bases loaded, if R2 misses 3rd and is properly appealed, that was a force and R3 can't score.

 

OBR follows those scoring rules to the letter with no exemptions. Awarded bases are simply the right for a runner to advance without liability of being put out. Those runners still have to run legally and the scoring rules apply. Dead ball action or not, a force is a force by definition.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Rich Ives]

36 minutes ago, Nafxos said:

Rich - I really appreciate the comments and I am not trying to be obtuse here, but I'm still not seeing anything explicit in the rules or the commentary that convinces me that R2 missing 3rd on the over-the-fence HR is a force out upon proper appeal.  I see it on the inside-the-park HR, because everyone is forced to move up one base when the batter hit the ball. But on the over-the-fence HR, we now have a dead ball award of home for everybody.  Yes, the runners still must touch the bases in order.  And yes, the defense can appeal a missed base.  But I can't make the connection that with bases loaded, if R2 misses 3rd and is properly appealed, that was a force and R3 can't score.

 

In the appeal play the runner is out for failing to run the bases properly even though the ball is dead. What more proof do you want?

[Nafxos]

1 minute ago, Rich Ives said:

In the appeal play the runner is out for failing to run the bases properly even though the ball is dead. What more proof do you want?

I get that part. I'm having trouble with the force play part, and why this isn't exception 3 to 5.09(a). 

My question in a nutshell was "does the over-the-fence home run change it from a force play to something else?" The consensus here seems to be no. Which is fine. And that's how I'll rule in the unlikely event I ever see this play in real life.

That said, I still haven't seen anything explicit in the case plays cited that addresses this exact situation. 

 

[maven]

1 hour ago, Nafxos said:

Rich - I really appreciate the comments and I am not trying to be obtuse here, but I'm still not seeing anything explicit in the rules or the commentary that convinces me that R2 missing 3rd on the over-the-fence HR is a force out upon proper appeal.  I see it on the inside-the-park HR, because everyone is forced to move up one base when the batter hit the ball. But on the over-the-fence HR, we now have a dead ball award of home for everybody.  Yes, the runners still must touch the bases in order.  And yes, the defense can appeal a missed base.  But I can't make the connection that with bases loaded, if R2 misses 3rd and is properly appealed, that was a force and R3 can't score.

 

R2 was forced to advance to 3B before the ball became dead.

I'm not sure exactly what you're looking for. R2's advance to 3B during a HR satisfies the rule book definition of "force play," which does not distinguish between live-ball and dead-ball situations.

Maybe this will help: the OBR definition of force play includes a comment about how a force is removed. There are only 2 ways, namely when a preceding following runner is put out, and when the forced runner touches his advance base. After either of those, a previously forced runner must be tagged. On a HR, the former can't happen; so if R2 misses 3B, then the force play there is never removed.

36 minutes ago, Nafxos said:

I get that part. I'm having trouble with the force play part, and why this isn't exception 3 to 5.09(a). 

I don't see this in 5.09(a), using either new or old OBR.

[Senor Azul]

Confusion reigns. Mr. Nafxos made the correct rule citation in his original post--5.08a. He referred to the EXCEPTION paragraph following the rule 5.08a. Then Mr. Ives used the APPROVED RULING (instead of the exception that Mr Nafxos was referring to) to answer the OP. Then Mr. Maven referred to "preceding" runner being put out to remove a force when rule 5.09b-6 refers to "following" runners being put out to remove a force.

[Rich Ives]

37 minutes ago, Nafxos said:

I get that part. I'm having trouble with the force play part, and why this isn't exception 3 to 5.09(a). 

My question in a nutshell was "does the over-the-fence home run change it from a force play to something else?" The consensus here seems to be no. Which is fine. And that's how I'll rule in the unlikely event I ever see this play in real life.

That said, I still haven't seen anything explicit in the case plays cited that addresses this exact situation. 

 

Where does anything say the force is removed?

[Rich Ives]

15 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Confusion reigns. Mr. Nafxos made the correct rule citation in his original post--5.08a. He referred to the EXCEPTION paragraph following the rule 5.08a. Then Mr. Ives used the APPROVED RULING (instead of the exception that Mr Nafxos was referring to) to answer the OP. Then Mr. Maven referred to "preceding" runner being put out to remove a force when rule 5.09b-6 refers to "following" runners being put out to remove a force.

I used the approved ruling to counter the argument. It was not a mistake on my part.

I'm sure Maven meant following.

[maven]

1 minute ago, Rich Ives said:

I'm sure Maven meant following.

Correct. I fixed it.

[Nafxos]

1 hour ago, maven said:

Maybe this will help: the OBR definition of force play includes a comment about how a force is removed. There are only 2 ways, namely when a preceding following runner is put out, and when the forced runner touches his advance base. After either of those, a previously forced runner must be tagged. On a HR, the former can't happen; so if R2 misses 3B, then the force play there is never removed.

Yes, thank you!  Lightbulb has finally gone on, and I see the light.

I think my issue stems from the case play that talks about R2 missing 3rd on inside-the-park HR.  I assumed (wrongly) that they were specifying "inside the park" in that instance because it was meaningful information, and thus that an outside the park HR might be treated differently.  Lesson learned.

Sorry about the rule number mixup.  I was posting from my ipad earlier and mucked it up.

[maven]

1 hour ago, Nafxos said:

I think my issue stems from the case play that talks about R2 missing 3rd on inside-the-park HR.  I assumed (wrongly) that they were specifying "inside the park" in that instance because it was meaningful information, and thus that an outside the park HR might be treated differently. 

I think that they said that in OBR because on an ITP HR, the runners are (or should be) actually running, so that as many score as possible. That makes a missed base more likely. On a dead-ball award, they can slow to a jog, making a missed base far less likely.

So I read including that detail as an attempt to make the play more plausible. Nothing more.

[Nafxos]

Interestingly, less than 24 hours after having this discussion, I had a JV game end yesterday on a missed base appeal when the would-be tying run missed 3rd.  There was no force situation, so it's not exactly the same, but had the bases been loaded instead of just R2 and R3, it would have affected the final score and possibly could have affected the outcome.

In my game, VT trailed by 2 in the top of the 7th with 2 outs and R2 and R3.  Batter hits an apparent game-tying double.  Defense appeals that R2 missed 3rd.  PU calls R2 out, taking tying run off the board, game over, HT wins by one.

Had the bases been loaded, my understanding is that R3's run would not have counted because R2's out on appeal would still be considered a force out, and thus the HT would have won by 2.  If the home team had only been winning by one with the bases loaded, it would have been a sh*tshow.  R2 out on appeal.  R3's run doesn't count because of the force out.  And instead of a tie game we'd have game over.