I finally get it....

[zoops]

I don't really have a problem with coaches not knowing all the rules.  I do have a problem with them getting upset about rules they have no knowledge of.  I understand being frustrated when you're surprised by a ruling that you didn't know existed, but I don't have respect for coaches who make a scene about it and try to convince you you're wrong.  Couple examples - I think I might have still been in high school working a Cal Ripken (10-12 yo) game by myself.  Ball hit off the very end of the bat up the 1B line lands a couple feet foul but spins back into fair territory about halfway between home and 1st and leads to an easy putout...daddy coach yells "that obviously landed foul come on blue!" until I think another coach in the dugout shushed him.  HS varsity game - pitcher botches a pitch and doesn't cross foul line, runner on so a balk is called.  Coach comes out calmly and questions the rule, and after me telling him what it is, he turns back to the dugout yelling that we're just guessing.  Another HS varsity game - R1 takes off stealing while F1 still is set.  F1 does the jump turn pickoff to 2nd base and R1 is eventually putout.  Coaches go crazy that he's throwing to an unoccupied base.  Won't accept my explanation but don't prolong it so much to get an EJ.  Even complained about it to the crew that worked them a couple days later - just shows lack of willingness to look in the rule book.  

The best is when they come back the next time and say hey I looked up that rule and you were right.  Most have too big of an ego to do that but I've had a couple do it.  I would agree that most coaches are good people with good intentions.  I'd probably put that 10% number more like 40-50% for coaches that aren't winning and have had a couple close calls go against them, at least for coaches at competitive levels.  

I coach basketball at a sub-varsity level and certainly don't know every little-seen rule, nor is there really a strategic advantage to do so.  I'll ask an official if I don't understand a ruling but try not to be rude about it, although if an official ignores you it can escalate the frustration level...

[jjb]

I think that the major source of frustration we have is in dealing with coaches when it come to rules issues. We all have experience with "he tagged him/no he didn't" issues. We get by with it, (I think)  because we instinctively feel that "well, that's what I saw, and we're just going to have to live with it". Where the biggest frustration come in is where we enforce a rule, and someone simply won't agree that it's actually a rule. That's what gives me the biggest heartburn.

I've always figured that there are three different types of coaches:

1. The ones who know the rules and know that they know the rules. These guys are easy to deal with. They may ask you what you saw, but are not going to argue the rule with you.

2. The ones who don't know the rules, and know that they don't know the rules. (I snidely refer to them as JV coaches). They don't argue the rules, and, if they ask you about them, it's usually because they're looking for education. The conversation usually ends with "oh ok"

3. The ones who don't know the rules, but think they know the rules. These are the people we have the most trouble with. They are usually going to argue something that's (1) a rules myth ("hands are part of the bat)", a rule in another sport ("his feet were in fair territory"), or another rules set ("my runner was touching the base when he was hit"). Worse, instead of studying the rule book, they will simply skim over it and compress the rule to the point where it becomes meaningless ("if he's out of the baseline, he's out").

The biggest frustration I have is arguing with this last group. I can tell them the rule, and they're going to flip back to the default "No it isn't". They're not going to actually go home and look up the rule: they have already decided I'm wrong, and they're right. Worse, they are going to tell everyone in the sound of their voices that I blew the call, I don't know the rules, and I cost them the game (they could have come back and scored 14 runs in the bottom of the 7th, you know). I've got no avenue of standing at home plate and announcing "Attention, please: here's what happened ad here's the rule".

That's why we vent here......

[jjb]

Deja vu zoops: I was writing while you were posting....

[HokieUmp]

5 hours ago, stkjock said:

well that's sad then IMO, At least at the lower levels

Well, it is .... I'm not going to disagree.  But I do a range of ages every year - I'm certainly not unique on this board in that regard, just pointing it out.  And in the lower age groups, you can tell early in a game if there's a coach wound too tight.  And you just stay prepared.  All you can do.

Like others have said, I don't go looking to start, or provoke, and I'll certainly be affable to participants, but will deal with people appropriately as needed.

[stkjock]

I see your point Hokie. 

 

I have to to say I wish I had one of you guys tonight for my game.   Thanks to what I've learned here I could tell this guy was either lazy or poorly trained, his positioning was poor, his movements were lacking, failed to announce obstruction at least 3 times and made two calls on one ball in play that looked all wrong to me.  Only thing I asked was if he saw the OBS on one play as the HT had a propensity to stand on second when runners were on the merry go round.  

 

Thanks agian to all posters for their view.