Runner Awarded base

[Guest Guest]

Runner on 3rd, one out.  A batted fly ball goes to center field.  Runner, thinking there were 2 outs, proceeds home without tagging up. Runner does not make an attempt to return to 3rd.

Center fielder successfully catches batted fly bat for out #2. Center fielder then throws ball to 3rd base hoping to double off runner. The throw to 3rd is errant and goes out of play.

Question: what is the status of the runner? Is he awarded home and scores? Is he sent back the 3rd and there is still 2 outs? or is the runner out?

 

[grayhawk]

Runner on 3rd, one out.  A batted fly ball goes to center field.  Runner, thinking there were 2 outs, proceeds home without tagging up. Runner does not make an attempt to return to 3rd.

Center fielder successfully catches batted fly bat for out #2. Center fielder then throws ball to 3rd base hoping to double off runner. The throw to 3rd is errant and goes out of play.

Question: what is the status of the runner? Is he awarded home and scores? Is he sent back the 3rd and there is still 2 outs? or is the runner out?

 

The correct award is 2 bases from the time of the throw, so R3 would be awarded home.  He still has to complete his award legally, however, or be liable to be called out on proper appeal.  If he doesn't go back and touch third, and then touch home, and the defense appeals, then he's toast.

[chuck]

Can R3 correct his base running error now that the ball is dead? Defense erred in appeal attempt, which was there throw to 3rd.

Edited September 23, 2015 by chuck

[Replacematt]

Can R3 correct his base running error now that the ball is dead? Defense erred in appeal attempt, which was there throw to 3rd v

In OBR, a runner can correct a baserunning error after the ball is dead as long as he does not reach an advance base after the ball is dead.

In FED, a runner cannot correct a baserunning error after the ball is dead if he reaches, is on, or is past the following base from where he started.

[grayhawk]

In OBR, a runner can correct a baserunning error after the ball is dead as long as he does not reach an advance base after the ball is dead.

In FED, a runner cannot correct a baserunning error after the ball is dead if he reaches, is on, or is past the following base from where he started.

Matt's right.  So in your play:

OBR:  Since the runner touched home BEFORE the ball became dead, he can legally go back and touch third and home.

FED:  Since the runner was "on or beyond" home when the ball became dead, he cannot LEGALLY go back and touch third.  However, if he does so, the umpire is not to make anyone aware that his retouch was done illegally.  If the defense knows the rules and still appeals, then R3 is still out.  If the defense doesn't appeal, then his run will score.

[chuck]

Assuming R3 crossed home before ball went out of play, he could correct in OBR, but not Fed, right? My question is does he need to? Does defense get to appeal after ball is returned to field and put in play(OBR) or make a dead ball appeal(Fed) when the reason it became dead is their throw out of play?

[grayhawk]

The ball becoming dead as a part of continuous action does not cancel the defense's right to appeal.  A defense loses their right to appeal after the next pitch or play or attempted play, or if they err when making the appeal, or if the pitcher balks.  In Fed, the dead ball appeal should not be granted until all runners have an opportunity to complete their awards, which includes an opportunity to correct their base running errors.

[Replacematt]

In Fed, the dead ball appeal should not be granted until all runners have an opportunity to complete their awards, which includes an opportunity to correct their base running errors.

Which in this case is moot, since R3 cannot legally correct it.

[chuck]

Ok, my confusion is in thinking their initial throw to 3rd, while a part of continuous action, was there appeal of R3 leaving prior to first touch of catch. 

[grayhawk]

Which in this case is moot, since R3 cannot legally correct it.

Which begs the question, if the defense appeals, and R3 is trotting back to third base, do you grant it since his retouch won't be legal anyway?  Or do you make the defense wait on their appeal until he "corrects" his baserunning error?

[grayhawk]

Ok, my confusion is in thinking their initial throw to 3rd, while a part of continuous action, was there appeal of R3 leaving prior to first touch of catch. 

It was an appeal, but it was part of continuous action, so they can still appeal after the ball is back in play (OBR), or during the dead ball (FED).

[maven]

Ok, my confusion is in thinking their initial throw to 3rd, while a part of continuous action, was their appeal of R3 leaving prior to first touch of catch. 

That's not your confusion, because that's correct. F8's throw to 3B was for the purpose of an appeal.

They still get to appeal once the ball is back in play (OBR).

[chuck]

One last comment, I think. Under OBR, not sure in FED, the defense loses right to appeal any runners at any base if they "err" in appeal attempt by throwing the ball into dead ball territory, as in the OP. 

[grayhawk]

One last comment, I think. Under OBR, not sure in FED, the defense loses right to appeal any runners at any base if they "err" in appeal attempt by throwing the ball into dead ball territory, as in the OP. 

As stated in posts above, the "err" on appeal as part of continuous action is exempt from this rule.  Also, in Fed, the "err" doesn't cancel the defense's right to appeal, but that would almost never happen anyway, since dead ball verbal appeals are allowed.

[Rich Ives]

One last comment, I think. Under OBR, not sure in FED, the defense loses right to appeal any runners at any base if they "err" in appeal attempt by throwing the ball into dead ball territory, as in the OP. 

Only after the action relaxes. A continuous action "err" is not an appeal "err".