Help! I got in an arguement on Facebook!

[dookiexman]

So, I was dumb enough to try to answer someone's softball question on Facebook.

Here is the question as posed by "random Facebook user" (recording verbatim from Facebook, please excuse any errors in descriptions):

"Okay for all you rules experts: Runner on first no outs. Batter hits popup to third which she catches. The runner on first does not tag up and runs to second. Third base throws to second which is bobbled and runner heads to third. Defensive team pick up ball and realizes that the runner left early and throws the ball to first, but it is a wild throw that goes into the dugout. What is the call?"

I asked what rule set, though I don't think it matters. No one ever answers this question.

I answered with the following to the OP:

You have a mess on your hands, but here is what the umpire should rule. The ball is dead at the time the ball enters the dugout. The runner is awarded two bases from the time of the throw, which would be home. However, if the runner properly retreats and retouches 1st, she is then awarded 3rd as she only gets a two base award from the last legally touched base. If she instead does not retouch first and goes to the original award of home, she is liable to be called out on proper appeal at 1st base for not retouching after the caught fly ball.

------------

From this point all I get is grief from the other posts about she should get home even if she retouches 1st properly. I tried to explain that she only gets two bases no matter what, but if done properly with no chance for an out on appeal, she would only get 3rd. I even had one person tell me that if I rule that and he is the coach then I would have a protest on my hands. I told him we would gladly accept his protest fee.

So, am I talking out my a$$ or did I get this correct?

 

[noumpere]

 

So, am I talking out my a$$ or did I get this correct?

 

What rules code? ;)​

 

Under FED, the award is third, and stays third, and even if the runner goes back to re-touch first, the runner would be out on appeal.

Under OBR, it depends on the timing.  You are correct if the runner touched third and THEN then ball becomes dead. If the ball becomes dead and THEN the runner touched third, you still make the awards as you have, but the runner is still liable to be out on appeal.

 

Under softball, IDK and IDC.

[Replacematt]

So, I was dumb enough to try to answer someone's softball question on Facebook.

Here is the question as posed by "random Facebook user" (recording verbatim from Facebook, please excuse any errors in descriptions):

"Okay for all you rules experts: Runner on first no outs. Batter hits popup to third which she catches. The runner on first does not tag up and runs to second. Third base throws to second which is bobbled and runner heads to third. Defensive team pick up ball and realizes that the runner left early and throws the ball to first, but it is a wild throw that goes into the dugout. What is the call?"

I asked what rule set, though I don't think it matters. No one ever answers this question.

I answered with the following to the OP:

You have a mess on your hands, but here is what the umpire should rule. The ball is dead at the time the ball enters the dugout. The runner is awarded two bases from the time of the throw, which would be home. However, if the runner properly retreats and retouches 1st, she is then awarded 3rd as she only gets a two base award from the last legally touched base. If she instead does not retouch first and goes to the original award of home, she is liable to be called out on proper appeal at 1st base for not retouching after the caught fly ball.

------------

From this point all I get is grief from the other posts about she should get home even if she retouches 1st properly. I tried to explain that she only gets two bases no matter what, but if done properly with no chance for an out on appeal, she would only get 3rd. I even had one person tell me that if I rule that and he is the coach then I would have a protest on my hands. I told him we would gladly accept his protest fee.

So, am I talking out my a$$ or did I get this correct?

 

​You are correct for non-FED baseball. FED baseball, the retouch is moot since the runner is beyond his advance base at the time the ball became dead.

[ShotKaller]

According to Fed and ASA rules once a ball leaves live ball territory all runners are permitted to finish their base running responsibilities and ALL BASE AWARDS MUST BE MADE before a dead ball appeal. So this means, that done correctly, the PU should put her on first to demonstrate that this was the last base legally OCCUPIED, and then award the runner third for the throw into the dug-out. So even if PU doesn't move her back to first base, he must explain why he is leaving her at third, and she COULD then go back and touch first since she is permitted to finish her base running responsibilities before a dead ball appeal. 

I have seen this happen where PU awards the runner home because he did not see the runner leave early, but killed the ball on the over throw and made the base award. The defensive coach then made a verbal dead ball appeal on the runner that was just awarded home for leaving early from first base and BU called her out. I am not sure if this would hold up under protest, but I have always been curious.      

Edited July 1, 2015 by ShotKaller
typo

[basejester]

[Kevin_K]

So, I was dumb enough to try to answer someone's softball question on Facebook.

Here is the question as posed by "random Facebook user" (recording verbatim from Facebook, please excuse any errors in descriptions):

"Okay for all you rules experts: Runner on first no outs. Batter hits popup to third which she catches. The runner on first does not tag up and runs to second. Third base throws to second which is bobbled and runner heads to third. Defensive team pick up ball and realizes that the runner left early and throws the ball to first, but it is a wild throw that goes into the dugout. What is the call?"

 

 

​Why would the batter catch her own popup?

[BretMan]

When it comes to different sanctioning bodies, asking about "softball rules" can be as vague as asking about "baseball rules" when you have LL, FED, NCAA, OBR, etc, etc to choose from.

Yes, the answer to this question could be different, depending on the rule set being used. It could even be different if it's fastpitch or slow pitch softball!

The answer the OP gave to the Facebook question most closely resembles the ruling for USSSA slow pitch softball (with a little FED baseball mixed in, for good measure). There, when a runner leaves early on a caught fly ball, and the ball is subsequently thrown out of play, the base left early from is counted as the first base of the two-base award. (Oddly, that's not the case for USSSA fastpitch. They say two bases from teh runners position at the time of the throw).

Most all others I'm aware of treat this as two bases (forward) at the time of the throw. Runners are permitted to go back and retouch a base left too soon during the dead ball. But it's still two bases from where they were when the throw was made, not from the base they had to go back and retouch.

But you really need to know what sanctioning body's rules were being used, as well if it was fast or slow pitch to make the right call.

Edited July 2, 2015 by BretMan