Time Play Validation

[Volunteer Blue]

Edit 2:  Reposting situation per below requests—but with a lot less smugness.

 

U8 machine pitch game, I’m OC, no umpires, defensive coaches make all safe/out calls.  Bottom of 5^th, bases loaded, 2 out.  Grounder to F5.  F5 decides to tag runner instead of base.  R2 is slow anyway and stops.  R3 crosses the plate long before tag is made.   I’m 1B coach and I point and say “coach, the runner crossed before the tag.† Their coach agrees and says (jokingly) “I was hoping you didn’t see that.  Absolutely the run counts.  That’s why I was trying to tell him to touch the bag.† My other coach also agreed that the run counted.  We count the run.  (Feel free to stop reading here).

 

Two dads of other team flip out (one is F5’s dad).  I offer to their coach, “If you agree with them, you can protest the game†and he replies, “we’re not protesting the game.† Of course because karma, they score 4 runs in top of the 6^th and this turns out to be the winning run.  Next day the league commissioner calls me and says he got emails that made it seem like game 7 of the World Series and it was going to cost some kids their MLB futures.  Outcome we chose (because since we already kicked one rule, may as well toss out the proper execution of a protest) to cancel the run and the next time we play, we’ll pick up in bottom of 6.  If my team scores, we win, if not, it’s a tie (league rules—no extra innings).

 

I was wrong.  And I was 1,000,000% certain I was right.  I have umpired HS Varsity, Legion ball, Connie Mack, and yes, Grayhawk, a little D3 (all in rural MN—getting the D3 games wasn’t nearly as difficult as many places) and it was back in the late 80s/early 90s.  I still do league ball 15 and under, but maybe 30 games each spring.  So I called my brother who I umped with in all those years.  I gave him the situation with no bias and asked him if the run scored.  He thought for a second and said yes.  I asked him why he thought that.  He reminded me of a clinic we attended and which covered almost exactly that situation except it was R1 and R3 with R1 tagged by F4 on ground ball with 2 outs after R3 crossed.  They taught us to be sure to watch closely the timing on the tag vs. plate touch.   Basically we both took away that the force out negating the run only applied on a base touch.  Clearly we were taught wrong and didn’t study enough or find reason to negate what we learned. 

 

So with far more humility I walk away with a lot less arrogance, and a lot less confidence in my rules knowledge.  Three strikes is still an out, right?

[guyinaredhat]

You kicked it .
The out is a force . A force is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by the batter becoming a runner. The ground ball  forces the runners to move . The r2 is forced to run to third and the out on r2 is a force wether he's tagged or the base is tagged .

[mrumpiresir]

Are you saying the runner from second base was tagged out before he reached third base?  If so, this is a force out and the run does not score.  (See the definition of a force play).

 

I think you got it wrong.

[grayhawk]

No way a D3 college umpire kicks something this basic. I'm skeptical of your stated experience. Not trying to be a jerk, but seriously?

[JaxRolo]

Why delete the post?

[Mad Mike]

I agree....put the post back up there. I am sure we can/will learn from it. We have all made mistakes during our umpiring days and that will never change. Thanks for taking the plunge and posting! 

[Thunderheads]

Edit: deleted for pure mortification from such a disastrous first post. I shall retreat to my cave, lick my wounds, but be a little smarter and a lot less smug.

I agree.... post it back so everyone can learn from it.  This is what this site is all about

[sdix00]

 

Edit: deleted for pure mortification from such a disastrous first post. I shall retreat to my cave, lick my wounds, but be a little smarter and a lot less smug.

I agree.... post it back so everyone can learn from it.  This is what this site is all about

 

 

 

@Volunteer Blue

Absolutely.  You get a pass when your objective is to learn. 

 

When you get a chance, check out some of my ridiculous posts from 2009 when I was transitioning from Coach to Umpire (mostly on Umpire.org).  I asked  A LOT of 'stupid' questions.  But there is SO MUCH 'dark web' knowledge on these boards that the only way to get at it is to post the wrong answer sometimes.    See 'Cunningham's law of the internet'.