When is fielder out of play

[jjskitours]

Based on reading Case Book 2.9.1 Situation C, it makes the point that it is a catch when he has one or both feet touching the playing field OR with both feet in flight prior to touching any dead-ball area. The question is how do you rule if one foot is out and one foot is in flight, but has not yet touched any dead-ball area. If you interpret as a "catch", what is your support?

 

Similar subject, fielder dives to make a catch and 90% of his body is across the out of play line, but his arm and glove hand are on the playing field, what do you have?

[maven]

It's like being in the backcourt in basketball: "you are where you were till you get where you're going."

 

Until he has something out and nothing in, he is in play. Once out of play, by rule he cannot make a catch (though he can complete one when the process has begun prior to his being out of play).

[grayhawk]

One foot on the ground in DBT and one foot in the air = no catch.

Having a hard time picturing your second scenario. Did he cross into DBT and then dive back to make the catch?

[noumpere]

On your second play, theres an interp somewhere out there (I don't have time to search right now) -- it's a catch, iirc.

 

Turns out I did have time.

 

2014 Interp 19:

 

SITUATION 19: F7 makes a diving catch. As he slides over the line designating dead-ball territory, his feet remain in live-ball territory. Is the ball dead? RULING: The ball remains live and in play. F7 must be entirely in dead-ball territory before the ball shall be declared dead. As long as any part of F7's body is touching the designated dead-ball line, the ball remains live. (5-1-1i)

[goody14]

Probably twisting this in my head, but I cannot tell is Maven and Grayhawk are saying the same thing.

 

Grayhawk says no catch.

 

Maven says as long as something in, he is in and he is where we was until he gets somewhere (so one foot in air is still considered in).  So, is he saying it is a catch?

[noumpere]

Probably twisting this in my head, but I cannot tell is Maven and Grayhawk are saying the same thing.

 

Grayhawk says no catch.

 

Maven says as long as something in, he is in and he is where we was until he gets somewhere (so one foot in air is still considered in).  So, is he saying it is a catch?

One foot out and the other in the air = no catch.

 

Note however that if the catch is made in LBT and the fielder's momentum carries him so that it's one foot out and the other in the air, the ball is still live.

[jjskitours]

I'm not a basketball referee, but I believe that there was a change in the rule / interpretation several years ago re. backcourt violations.

In baseball terms, on my 1st point, are you implying it is a catch since his 2nd foot has not yet been established on the ground in DB territory.

If so, what is your NF baseball rule / interpretation support since the NF Case Book notes both feet in flight.

[noumpere]

I'm not a basketball referee, but I believe that there was a change in the rule / interpretation several years ago re. backcourt violations.

In baseball terms, on my 1st point, are you implying it is a catch since his 2nd foot has not yet been established on the ground in DB territory.

If so, what is your NF baseball rule / interpretation support since the NF Case Book notes both feet in flight.

I'm not sure who you are responding to (quote is your friend), but as far as I can tell, all the responders agree that your first play is NOT a catch. (and a basketball player in the similar situation would be OOB and in the backcourt)

[jjskitours]

Sorry to grayhawk and noumpere as I failed to read your posts until after I sent Maven my follow up. You both are on same page as me so no further discussion necessary. And thanks noumpere for 2014 interpretation

[maven]

I'm not a basketball referee, but I believe that there was a change in the rule / interpretation several years ago re. backcourt violations.

 

Yes, they tried to mess up the rule as a result of adding team control during a throw-in, but the principle I offered is still applicable.

 

I was providing the general principle and not offering a ruling on your particular play (which I could not quite follow).

[jjskitours]

I now need to follow up on these issues and ask for your input. Also, who would you go to as the most authoritative source. I assume it would be the Rules Interpreter for NFHS. Our association's interpreter disagrees on both questions below and has supposedly gone to the state interpreter - his comment reads "I'm already checking with John Smith, but per John it appears the answers to both are incorrect.

 

1. The playing field is marked with a painted line just beyond the dugouts on both sides of the field. In the top of the third inning, B1 hits a high pop foul about ten feet to the right of the third base dugout near the out of play line.

    F5 in his effort to make the catch and stay in play has one foot totally out of play, but his other foot in the air over the playing field when he secures the ball in his glove. The plate umpire moves over towards the dugout and

    correctly rules "no catch"? T-F   Answer: True - Case Book 2.9.1 Situation C Comment {1}

    Follow up answer given:

    There are basically 3 scenarios besides the 2 obvious ones {both feet in or both feet out} that can occur when a fielder is making a catch near the out of play line.

    1. One foot in and one foot out {each in contact with the ground} = Catch
    2. Both feet in the air before touching any dead-ball area = Catch
    3. One foot on the ground in dead-ball area and the other foot in the air = No Catch

 

2. With R1 and one out, B3 hits a deep fly ball curving foul. F7 makes a diving catch before sliding over the line designating dead-ball territory. The plate umpire sees that all of his body except his right hand and arm have

    crossed the out of play line. He rules a catch, B3 out and correctly calls "Time" and awards R1 second base? T-F  Answer: False - 2-9-1, 5-1-1i; NFHS 2014 Rules Interpretations No.19 {ball still live}

    Follow up answer given:

    If after making a legal catch by diving for the ball with both feet in the air and then sliding into dead-ball area with all but a part of his body, it is a catch {not in dispute}. The question

    becomes is the ball dead and runners awarded one base. The answer is the ball is still live at that point and no base is awarded. This is based on NFHS 2014 Rules Interpretations No. 19    

SITUATION 19: F7 makes a diving catch. As he slides over the line designating dead-ball territory, his feet remain in live-ball territory. Is the ball dead? RULING: The ball remains live and in play. F7 must be entirely in dead-ball territory before the ball shall be declared dead. As long as any part of F7's body is touching the designated dead-ball line, the ball remains live.

 

I rely a lot on U-E as I believe there are many umpires that respond with years of experience and that are very knowledgeable about all the rules. Here of course just looking at FED. As much feedback whether agree or disagree is greatly appreciated. These issues just need to be resolved.

[jjskitours]

Sorry for the typing mess under post #11. I was trying to save some time by using copy and paste.

[maven]

I already answered your questions in post #2 above. A fielder is in until he has something out (on the ground) and nothing in. What's the problem?

[grayhawk]

Why does your association's rules interpreter think the answers to those questions are incorrect?

[jjskitours]

Don't know, but know he supposedly has the backing of the state rules interpreter.

 

Here is all the state interpreter sent to him:

As a reference use casebook play 2.9.1 the comment.  The key to question 2 is that the defensive players feet were out of play.

 

His response for Q2 sure doesn't mesh with the 2014 NFHS rules interpretation #19  which states as long as any part of the body is in, the ball is live.

I did use case book 2.9.1 Comment to support my claim for Q1 that one foot out and ONE foot in flight is out / no catch. What more can I do.

Again, who is the TOP authority on NFHS rules?

[maven]

 

Again, who is the TOP authority on NFHS rules?

 

 

It depends.

 

For making case plays: the staff at NFHS.

 

For ruling on plays within a state: the state interpreter.

 

For ruling on plays in my game, in my state, which does not allow protests: me.

[jjskitours]

What could I possibly be missing re Q2 when reading 2014 NFHS Rules Interpretations No. 19. Fielder dives makes the legal catch and slides out of play - well not all of his body out of play.

The last sentence - is in not saying as long as ANY PART of his body is in play, including on the line, that the ball is live.

 

As for Q1, I guess the Case Book ref doesn't read black & white since it doesn't specifically say "when one foot is out and ONE foot is in flight it's a NO CATCH. Of course why make the point that it is

a catch when BOTH feet are in flight.

 

Do these two issues rise to the level of getting an interpretation from NFHS? If not, why not?

[maven]

I guess I'm not seeing the problem.

 

You're right, but your state interpreter seems to be saying something that contradicts the case plays. So?

 

How is this dispute going to affect the way you call it? Or the way a protest might be ruled? Or anything else pertaining to an actual baseball game?

 

Either your state interpreter misunderstood, or he is incorrect. Isn't that sufficient?

[jjskitours]

What about the other 80+ members who would be persuaded to make the call the incorrect way because the interpretation came down from the top. Is it sufficient for just me to

make the correct call. At issue here is that I write the quiz questions and provide the answers. If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow and move on, but if I'm right, I want the membership to be able

to make the correct call with confidence.

[noumpere]

What about the other 80+ members who would be persuaded to make the call the incorrect way because the interpretation came down from the top. Is it sufficient for just me to

make the correct call. At issue here is that I write the quiz questions and provide the answers. If I'm wrong, I'll eat crow and move on, but if I'm right, I want the membership to be able

to make the correct call with confidence.

Then I'd provide the answers as "the correct rule in FED is xxx, but in this state, John Smith says we should rule yyy"

[jjskitours]

Would you ever go back to the State rules interpreter with "I checked with NFHS and they said the correct ruling is ......".  After all aren't these 2 issues B&W or is there some leeway to interpret the rules differently at the State level. Isn't it ever possible that the State interpreter is just plain wrong. We don't have protests at the high school level, so maybe the attitude should be "what difference does it make".

[maven]

My guess is that the interpreter misunderstood the question and was in a hurry.

[jjskitours]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but in my research I found under umpire.org the following statement which may contradict the theory of one foot out and one foot in the air (last touching in play) = No catch

 

FED Baseball rules allow a fielder to remain "in play" as long as he has one foot still on Live Ball Territory (LBT) even of the other foot has touched Dead Ball Territory (DBT). If a fielder jumps and makes a catch while in the air then, as long the ground that one of his feet last touched was LBT the catch is legal. The fielder has not entered DBT until both feet touch DBT. The rule uses the feet to determine if the player is in DBT or LBT.

 

Please comment - is the "catch" part still only apply if BOTH feet are in the air and the second part is dealing with ONLY when ball becomes dead

[Replacematt]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but in my research I found under umpire.org the following statement which may contradict the theory of one foot out and one foot in the air (last touching in play) = No catch

 

FED Baseball rules allow a fielder to remain "in play" as long as he has one foot still on Live Ball Territory (LBT) even of the other foot has touched Dead Ball Territory (DBT). If a fielder jumps and makes a catch while in the air then, as long the ground that one of his feet last touched was LBT the catch is legal. The fielder has not entered DBT until both feet touch DBT. The rule uses the feet to determine if the player is in DBT or LBT.

 

Please comment - is the "catch" part still only apply if BOTH feet are in the air and the second part is dealing with ONLY when ball becomes dead

 

I will say that the 2.9.1C comment leaves a gap, thus, until there is an interpretation from NFHS, there is no universal correct nor incorrect answer.

[jjskitours]

Anybody know how to solicit NFHS for an interpretation.