Missing 2B

[Pops]

Base hit to F9. R1 misses 2B and is half way to 3B before turning around and running back toward 2B.

Before R1 can return to touch 2B, F9 fires the ball into F6, who is, by chance, standing on the base when he catches the ball (and before R1 touches the base). F6 does not tag R1. Is R1 out?

[Ump29]

R1 could be called out if F6 indicates that he is making an appeal for missing the base. Just standing there or receiving the throw from the outfield does not in itself indicate an appeal.

[UmpTTS43]

Base hit to F9. R1 misses 2B and is half way to 3B before turning around and running back toward 2B.

Before R1 can return to touch 2B, F9 fires the ball into F6, who is, by chance, standing on the base when he catches the ball (and before R1 touches the base). F6 does not tag R1. Is R1 out?

The "force out" is removed when R1 advances to and passes second base. R1 must be tagged in order for an out to be recorded unless a valid appeal is made for the missed base.

[Pops]

Thank you. That's what I thought...just couldn't find the reference.

[SnareDrum]

I've been, perhaps unnecessarily, mulling this one over since I first read the OP and reply. Over the weekend, it was a similar sitch when R1 running with the pitch missed 2nd as F4 made a dive on the ground ball up the middle, as the runner was coming back, F4 made the tag for the out. Immediately, the question popped up in my head, "What it F4 had stepped on 2nd before the runner returned?" Then I remembered skimming through this post last week and the mulling which ensued...

Based on the OP, IMHO, this would be a live ball appeal situation and the runner was out when F6 caught it on the base. I'm staring at p. 46 of Fed, 8-2-5, Penalty: "A live-ball appeal may be may be made by a defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early." A full blown dead-ball appeal can be made too, but I'm not sure how if the runner came back to stand on the 2B. (In this situation, it's similar what would be called if a runner left a base too soon on a caught pop fly... the fielder just steps on the base before the runner can return, which we all know is actually a live ball appeal.) In OBR, I'm looking at 7.10-(B): The runners is out when... "With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged."

Technically a live ball appeal for missing a base. Untechnically, the fielder touched the base before the runner forced to advance did. Regardless, I would've punched him out on the spot. If I call R1 safe, I should be prepared for a coach in my grill. Coach is gonna have his rulebook on p.46. What am I gonna have?

Also in the first reply, isn't the force only removed if the runner touches the base? In the OP, and based on the rules I quoted, it could've been a DP if F6 had thrown thrown to F3 in time, right?

SO what do you think... in this situation was R1 out? I say yes. If you think safe, please cite the rule(s).

[sdix00]

I've been, perhaps unnecessarily, mulling this one over since I first read the OP and reply. Over the weekend, it was a similar sitch when R1 running with the pitch missed 2nd as F4 made a dive on the ground ball up the middle, as the runner was coming back, F4 made the tag for the out. Immediately, the question popped up in my head, "What it F4 had stepped on 2nd before the runner returned?" Then I remembered skimming through this post last week and the mulling which ensued...

Based on the OP, IMHO, this would be a live ball appeal situation and the runner was out when F6 caught it on the base. I'm staring at p. 46 of Fed, 8-2-5, Penalty: "A live-ball appeal may be may be made by a defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early." A full blown dead-ball appeal can be made too, but I'm not sure how if the runner came back to stand on the 2B. (In this situation, it's similar what would be called if a runner left a base too soon on a caught pop fly... the fielder just steps on the base before the runner can return, which we all know is actually a live ball appeal.) In OBR, I'm looking at 7.10-(B): The runners is out when... "With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged."

Technically a live ball appeal for missing a base. Untechnically, the fielder touched the base before the runner forced to advance did. Regardless, I would've punched him out on the spot. If I call R1 safe, I should be prepared for a coach in my grill. Coach is gonna have his rulebook on p.46. What am I gonna have?

Also in the first reply, isn't the force only removed if the runner touches the base? In the OP, and based on the rules I quoted, it could've been a DP if F6 had thrown thrown to F3 in time, right?

SO what do you think... in this situation was R1 out? I say yes. If you think safe, please cite the rule(s).

7.10 comment

An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an

appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not

constitute an appeal. Time is not out when an appeal is being made.

Also in the first reply, isn't the force only removed if the runner touches the base?

The force is removed (pending appeal) once the runner acquires the base.

MLBUM 2010

34. Interpretation of Rule 7.01: Appeal Plays: Approved Rulings

(12) Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first

base but misses the bag.

Ruling: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to call the runner

safe, indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging

the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base

before the runner returns to first base, the batter-runner would be declared

out. Note also Official Baseball Rule 7.08(k) Comment.

[carolinablue]

Once a runner reaches the base he is going it is assumed he has touched it, even if he did not, until a proper appeal has been made. So the force was removed once he reached 2B. If he had continued to 3B and a proper appeal was made the appeal out would be treated like a force in the event it was the third out and had an effect on any runs that would have scored.

I would not call the fielder just arbitrarily touching the base a proper appeal. Im not sure about FED but OBR makes that statement in the rule. They have to do or say something to make it obvious.

[SnareDrum]

First, MANY thanks sdix00 for the citations. I don't have the MLBUM sources, but that's not a biggie. Maybe the part of OP that got me was the "by chance standing on the bag". Perhaps I would wonder how an infielder would take a throw from the OF and accidentally be standing on the bag.

I was aware of the "unmistakably" comment... however in many games worked and viewed, this seems to be the judgment of the umpire. We've all seen the infielder catch the ball on the relay from the outfield and just casually trot and lazy step on the base on the way to the dugout for the third out (1 out R1 took off on the pitch, deep fly and he's now past third). How do I know that he doesn't step on the base as his little "thing" that he does after every half-inning or if this is "unmistakable"? We all call the out and move on.

From the OP above, I still believe I'd immediately call an out especially since he's standing on the bag. To me this would show everything I need. Now if F6 is just off the base and as he turns to throw to F1 he steps on the base, then I would not have an out and I'd be ready to explain to their coach as to why. The key here to me is that F6 was standing on 2B and that's hard to do by accident. I would not expect him to stand there and yell out, "I'm appealing!" though I've had it happen.

SO, IMHO, I'd call an out. The fact that the F6 was standing on the base as he took the throw would've been enough, but perhaps I would take into consideration how long he held the ball; did he catch and then look at me expecting a verdict?; does he then step off and throw it F1 as if nothing happened?

"--------------------------MLBUM 2010 34. Interpretation of Rule 7.01: Appeal Plays: Approved Rulings (12) Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first base but misses the bag. Ruling: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to call the runner safe, indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base before the runner returns to first base, the batter-runner would be declared out. Note also Official Baseball Rule 7.08(k) Comment. ------------------------------"

Is this 34 the same in FED? Can't actually recall it happening to me, but now of course it will tonight!

[LMSANS]

First, MANY thanks sdix00 for the citations. I don't have the MLBUM sources, but that's not a biggie. Maybe the part of OP that got me was the "by chance standing on the bag". Perhaps I would wonder how an infielder would take a throw from the OF and accidentally be standing on the bag.

I was aware of the "unmistakably" comment... however in many games worked and viewed, this seems to be the judgment of the umpire. We've all seen the infielder catch the ball on the relay from the outfield and just casually trot and lazy step on the base on the way to the dugout for the third out (1 out R1 took off on the pitch, deep fly and he's now past third). How do I know that he doesn't step on the base as his little "thing" that he does after every half-inning or if this is "unmistakable"? We all call the out and move on.

From the OP above, I still believe I'd immediately call an out especially since he's standing on the bag. To me this would show everything I need. Now if F6 is just off the base and as he turns to throw to F1 he steps on the base, then I would not have an out and I'd be ready to explain to their coach as to why. The key here to me is that F6 was standing on 2B and that's hard to do by accident. I would not expect him to stand there and yell out, "I'm appealing!" though I've had it happen.

SO, IMHO, I'd call an out. The fact that the F6 was standing on the base as he took the throw would've been enough, but perhaps I would take into consideration how long he held the ball; did he catch and then look at me expecting a verdict?; does he then step off and throw it F1 as if nothing happened?

"--------------------------MLBUM 2010 34. Interpretation of Rule 7.01: Appeal Plays: Approved Rulings (12) Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first base but misses the bag. Ruling: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to call the runner safe, indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base before the runner returns to first base, the batter-runner would be declared out. Note also Official Baseball Rule 7.08(k) Comment. ------------------------------"

Is this 34 the same in FED? Can't actually recall it happening to me, but now of course it will tonight!

Yes.

[Rich Ives]

First, MANY thanks sdix00 for the citations. I don't have the MLBUM sources, but that's not a biggie. Maybe the part of OP that got me was the "by chance standing on the bag". Perhaps I would wonder how an infielder would take a throw from the OF and accidentally be standing on the bag.

I was aware of the "unmistakably" comment... however in many games worked and viewed, this seems to be the judgment of the umpire. We've all seen the infielder catch the ball on the relay from the outfield and just casually trot and lazy step on the base on the way to the dugout for the third out (1 out R1 took off on the pitch, deep fly and he's now past third). How do I know that he doesn't step on the base as his little "thing" that he does after every half-inning or if this is "unmistakable"? We all call the out and move on.

From the OP above, I still believe I'd immediately call an out especially since he's standing on the bag. To me this would show everything I need. Now if F6 is just off the base and as he turns to throw to F1 he steps on the base, then I would not have an out and I'd be ready to explain to their coach as to why. The key here to me is that F6 was standing on 2B and that's hard to do by accident. I would not expect him to stand there and yell out, "I'm appealing!" though I've had it happen.

SO, IMHO, I'd call an out. The fact that the F6 was standing on the base as he took the throw would've been enough, but perhaps I would take into consideration how long he held the ball; did he catch and then look at me expecting a verdict?; does he then step off and throw it F1 as if nothing happened?

"--------------------------MLBUM 2010 34. Interpretation of Rule 7.01: Appeal Plays: Approved Rulings (12) Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first base but misses the bag. Ruling: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to call the runner safe, indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base before the runner returns to first base, the batter-runner would be declared out. Note also Official Baseball Rule 7.08(k) Comment. ------------------------------"

Is this 34 the same in FED? Can't actually recall it happening to me, but now of course it will tonight!

You need to get a better feel for the game. To me both situations are obvious - the first being an obvious appeal and the second being an obvious "clueless".

[SnareDrum]

@Rich: No. Not "clueless". And my "feel" is pretty good after 26 years of wearing blue. No need to for that, Rich. It wasn't my situation.

Regarding the first base scenario, I saw it happen just like that in a tournament game three years ago. The rather senior umpire did a no-call/nothing as both coaches began screaming at their respective players to either get back or touch the base/tag him (I was chillin' in the press box). F3 started to chase the runner, then turned and beat the runner back to the bag in a bang-bang. Nobody on the defense said anything about an appeal, but he was still out for out #3. Meanwhile the runner that was on 3rd scored during the melee. The reason this came to mind was the ensuing brouhaha over whether or not the run counted, but that's another thread for another day. (If someone likes, I'll write it up!)

Back to the OP, he's out.

[Rich Ives]

@Rich: No. Not "clueless". And my "feel" is pretty good after 26 years of wearing blue. No need to for that, Rich. It wasn't my situation.

Back to the OP, he's out.

What makes it obvious to you? It isn't obvious to most of us.

[mstaylor]

At one time Fed allowed accidental appeals, no longer. If you think the fielder is making an appeal then certainly rule on it. The rule requires an unmistakable appeal, generally this means verbal but there are certain times where physical action is enough. As a rule of thumb, simply catching the ball and touching the base is not enough, it needs a verbal.

In your play you said the F4 made the tag. I assume you mean tagged the runner. If this is true and there had been two outs, any runs scoring would be time plays on the tag. The defense could then go and appeal the miss at second for the force to negate the runs.