B or C

[alex7]

Yeah, sounds like all the books say C, so just hoping someone has read/heard some of the reasoning behind it.  I'm guessing pick-off to 3rd is one, but can't think of many others.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Both Wendelstedt and Evans manuals have you in C for bases loaded.

Actually that is in correct.. they say you will be on the 3rd base side of the mound..

 

"C" is used in the CCA....LOL

[Haid D' Salaami]

Would you rather take a pickoff at first from C or a pickoff at third from B?

I don't feel the need to consider whether I'll be able to get out of the ball's way; if I'm asked about a check swing I'll give my honest opinion, and I have no problem getting a strike; and since I know the play will likely be to 1st I can start moving that way as soon as there's a ground ball to the infield.

why are they gonna pick off at 1st.... that is a stupid move... and not one 1st baseman in a free world is gonna hold on R1 with bases loaded.

[Haid D' Salaami]

 

TUS taught C so I imagine milb is the same. Only time they have you in B is when a steal of second is possible.

I will investigate.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

Mike... PBUC is still teaching out of the Red Book.. So yes.. your in "C" ( as we say in the college world) with basesloaded... or r3, R2, R2+R3.. the number of outs make no difference.... get your lazy a$$ across the infield on double plays... start moving and quit killing grass.....LOL   Mike btw Im not saying that you don't move.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Let's keep this real.. why do guys want to be in "B"..... CAUSE IT IS LESS MOVING FOR THEIR LAZY ASS....

 

 

Look i see why... but if you do the footwork properly you can get across and get in a great angle for plays at 1st...no association out here teaches or allows you to be in "B" with basesloaded... It is taught in umpire School that "surprise is umpires worst enemy" and being in a spot closer to 1st is being lazy.. yes I said it...I'm not calling anyone on here lazy, but if you take offense, maybe you are. I'm not calling any Pac -12 guys lazy.. but.. PAC 12 guys work 3 man...

[Haid D' Salaami]

Yeah, sounds like all the books say C, so just hoping someone has read/heard some of the reasoning behind it.  I'm guessing pick-off to 3rd is one, but can't think of many others.

Yes every book out there says "C".. why cause it is the optimal place to be for a double play.. maybe a 3-1 double play, maybe just a Home-1st play... but if you start where it is taught and move with the play, like its taught.. you wont have problems.

[alex7]

 

Yeah, sounds like all the books say C, so just hoping someone has read/heard some of the reasoning behind it.  I'm guessing pick-off to 3rd is one, but can't think of many others.

Yes every book out there says "C".. why cause it is the optimal place to be for a double play.. maybe a 3-1 double play, maybe just a Home-1st play... but if you start where it is taught and move with the play, like its taught.. you wont have problems.

 

 

I don't doubt that simply moving around will get you into the ideal spot for a DP after starting in C.  But I still haven't heard WHY we should start in C.  What situations am I better prepared for by starting in C than in B?   The ones presented for starting in B (check-swings, DP, outs at 1st) make sense.  Just looking for the counter-argument.

 

As for the pickoffs at 1st, once I started moving up to slightly higher-level ball, I've seen more and more of those with bases loaded - either straight picks from the pitcher or backpicks from the catcher.  Usually that runner is not expecting it.

[UmpTTS43]

Prepitch positioning is based on being in proper position for the most likely play on a non batted ball. Once the ball is hit you are expected to get yourself into whatever position you need for that particular play. C is the proper position with bases loaded.

[VAUmp]

Thanks for all the opinions.  My answer to "why C" would be:  That's what the book says.  But, if your boss says B, go to B.  I just think that it could open up a pandoras box.  I can see at my association meetings.  

Someone:  I wanna be here for this play...  

 

Commissioner:  No, the book says we are align in X in that situation.

Someone:  But we ignore the book with the bases loaded, so why not now?

 

Commissioner:  Ahh .. well .. uhhh ???

 

If we just start aligning where we want because of X, Y, or Z .. people will begin to freelance.  Freelancing will burn you more than it will help you.

 

Again, just my $0.02

 

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

 

[mstaylor]

Agreed with staying with standard mechanics. I confirmed PBUC wants C. I still like B but that is not what the manuals say. It has been my experience that many high level clinics teach B, but WTH. When I teach it locally I tell them exactly that, C is the commonly taught position, I prefer B but do what is comfortable. 

[mstaylor]

I take no offense Haid, I do it because it seems logical to me, certainly not because I am lazy. But as I said above, PBUC confirmed C. Maybe MidAm will see this and weigh in. 

[MidAmUmp]

@mstaylor has drawn me back in.  I gave him a much more elaborate, well thought out, and highly educated    response in the PM he sent me...but the Cliff Notes version is the Mid-American Umpire Clinic teaches C.

[mstaylor]

Which means three manuals,PBUC and MidAmUmp all agree, and then there's Mike.<br /><br />Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br />

[basejester]

Let's keep this real.. why do guys want to be in "B"..... CAUSE IT IS LESS MOVING FOR THEIR LAZY ASS....

Besides being at or close to where the umpire needs to be, by what other criteria should we judge pre-pitch positioning?

[alex7]

 

Let's keep this real.. why do guys want to be in "B"..... CAUSE IT IS LESS MOVING FOR THEIR LAZY ASS....

Besides being at or close to where the umpire needs to be, by what other criteria should we judge pre-pitch positioning?

 

 

Haid likes to start in the D position with nobody on, just to show off that hustle.  Health nut Haid.

[VAUmp]

I prefer to align down the left field line.  That way everything is in front of me at all times.

[Haid D' Salaami]

 

Let's keep this real.. why do guys want to be in "B"..... CAUSE IT IS LESS MOVING FOR THEIR LAZY ASS....

Besides being at or close to where the umpire needs to be, by what other criteria should we judge pre-pitch positioning?

 

So we can judge a few things... How many out?  is my BR fast or a big guy?... how is the defense setup?  what inning is it? Could this be a squeeze play?  how about a Drag bunt...

[Haid D' Salaami]

 

 

Yeah, sounds like all the books say C, so just hoping someone has read/heard some of the reasoning behind it.  I'm guessing pick-off to 3rd is one, but can't think of many others.

Yes every book out there says "C".. why cause it is the optimal place to be for a double play.. maybe a 3-1 double play, maybe just a Home-1st play... but if you start where it is taught and move with the play, like its taught.. you wont have problems.

 

 

I don't doubt that simply moving around will get you into the ideal spot for a DP after starting in C.  But I still haven't heard WHY we should start in C.  What situations am I better prepared for by starting in C than in B?   The ones presented for starting in B (check-swings, DP, outs at 1st) make sense.  Just looking for the counter-argument.

 

As for the pickoffs at 1st, once I started moving up to slightly higher-level ball, I've seen more and more of those with bases loaded - either straight picks from the pitcher or backpicks from the catcher.  Usually that runner is not expecting it.

 

if you continue to move up.. you will not see any fielders holding on R1 with bases loaded, it doesn't make baseball sense... most of the time catchers will not back pick, if that ball is thrown into the outfield 2 runs will score, and he gets his butt chewed out.

[alex7]

if you continue to move up.. you will not see any fielders holding on R1 with bases loaded, it doesn't make baseball sense... most of the time catchers will not back pick, if that ball is thrown into the outfield 2 runs will score, and he gets his butt chewed out.

Back picks. No one holding them on. Set plays. Anywho, still hoping to hear advantages for starting in C.

[Haid D' Salaami]

The advantage is... if the double play is not a 2nd to 1st double play.. Harry's teaches to never assume the double play, and anticipate the play will go to 1st, but if the fielder turns and attempts a double play from 3rd to 2nd, your gonna be a great position. rather than if you started on the "B" side, you will be father away from 3rd, which is a possible play.

 

When your at umpire school and the PBUC eval course we didn't ask "WHY" you just do it cause umpires for yrs have been doing it this way, and evaluaters  have tried and used different starting points, but in the OP .."C" is the best starting point.  why.. cause they have seen why... plus, if you can move across the infield or I mean into the "working area" cause we have multiple runners, you will be better off.

 

But when in Rome...I work for a DII assignor that does not want the BU to ever..ever go out from the line...and he want the plate umpire to take a play at 3rd on the outside like we do in 3man... I have told him, and the clinic i taught at, why we shouldn't do that.... but when I work for him, i do what he wants.

[basejester]

 

Besides being at or close to where the umpire needs to be, by what other criteria should we judge pre-pitch positioning?

So we can judge a few things... How many out?  is my BR fast or a big guy?... how is the defense setup?  what inning is it? Could this be a squeeze play?  how about a Drag bunt...

I wasn't asking what factors we should consider to pick a positioning. I was asking, retorically, what makes a particular positioning good? It seems to me that not having to go far is a merit.

[alex7]

so far we just have a possible 3rd to 2nd double play (which I've never seen, but I'm sure happens once in a long while) as a reason to start in C.  

 

I'm starting to think the only (main) reason we start in C is because when the situation went from R1 and R2 to bases loaded, nothing seemed different, so they just told us to stay in C.  I see why the Pac-12 guy said "in real-world umpiring" where you try to locate yourself where you'll most likely need to be based on the most common plays that will happen.

 

I can still see RHP's hands from deep B, so that's not much of a C advantage.  Honestly just a little surprised there don't seem to be many good reasons why C is taught, unless MidAmUmp is holding back what he revealed to Mike in that PM magna carta.  =)

[Haid D' Salaami]

 

Besides being at or close to where the umpire needs to be, by what other criteria should we judge pre-pitch positioning?

So we can judge a few things... How many out?  is my BR fast or a big guy?... how is the defense setup?  what inning is it? Could this be a squeeze play?  how about a Drag bunt...

I wasn't asking what factors we should consider to pick a positioning. I was asking, retorically, what makes a particular positioning good? It seems to me that not having to go far is a merit.

 

Not having to move far is a merit, sometimes, heck sometimes we don't need to move... but many of many yrs have been put in.. or at least many of night in a bar with sugar packets, have been used to determine what is the best starting point.

 

We always teach dont be a "X" umpire.... but they are talking about during plays... Our starting point should be pretty much universal..."A" 8-10' behind 1stbaseman.. your coordinator shouldn't say.. hey if you feel comfy, start even or in front of the fielder right?

[alex7]

"Our starting point should be pretty much universal..."A" 8-10' behind 1stbaseman.. your coordinator shouldn't say.. hey if you feel comfy, start even or in front of the fielder right?"

 

 

But that has a clear reason.  Still waiting on the clear ones for C with bases loaded.  3 pages...still waiting  =(

[UmpTTS43]

As I stated earlier, your prepitch positioning is based on where the likelihood of a play will be made on a non batted ball. With bases loaded, the percentages say that those plays will be made on R3. This is why we start in C. Once the ball is batted you are expected to be in whatever position the play dictates, whether it's on the third base line for a rundown or as close to first as the play will allow on an instinct play.