I Feel Bad............Almost

[BigUmp56]

It wasn't a complicated play that led to it, and I'm sure you've all had similar experiences, but I almost feel bad about an ejection I had to issue earlier this year.

 

No one on base, and I don't think there were any outs. Doesn't really matter if their were. Batter hits a shot deep in the hole. I'm on the stick, so I trail him up the first baseline to look for ST/PF. F5 throws to F3 and forces him to jump to field the throw. As he comes down, he stabs at the bag with his foot, and from my position, he narrowly missed it. My partner bangs the BR out......

 

HC of the offensive team does everything right to question the call. He asks for time, gets it, and goes to my partner to ask him if he can get some help on the play. My partner is a relatively new umpire to HS baseball, but he does the right thing and motions for me to get together with him to discuss the call.

 

We stand off to the side, away from everyone, and he asks me if I thought the throw beat the runner. I told him that whether or not the throw beat the runner wasn't my call to make, but that I thought it was close, but it did beat the runner. He then asks me about F3 hitting the bag or not, and I tell him that from my position it looked like he missed it. He tells me that he's pretty sure F3 caught a piece of the bag as he stabbed at it. I tell him that if that's what he had, it's his call, and that's what we should go with.

 

We separate and he reaffirms his out call to the HC, and the HC starts to jump my butt about the call. He tells me that I'm the senior umpire and I have to overturn my younger, newer partner. I tell him that my partner was responsible for the call, and that our decision was final. I ask him to please return the dugout so we can get going again. He decides that his participation is no longer required for the day by telling me that I'm a $hit umpire with no balls, blah, blah, blah......

 

Now, I'm almost positive that I saw the fielder miss the bag, and miss it by a pretty good amount. This ALMOST makes me feel bad about having to run a manager because of a call we made as a crew.

 

Or, maybe not.....................

 

Tim.

[JHSump]

I understand how you might be beating yourself up about this.  We all want to get the calls right.  But, remember, the HC ejected himself.  He decided to make it personal.  He should have known better, especially since he knew the correct procedure in going to your partner.  You're almost positive the fielder missed the bag, but you can be certain the HC asked to be ejected.

[BigUmpire]

It wasn't a complicated play that led to it, and I'm sure you've all had similar experiences, but I almost feel bad about an ejection I had to issue earlier this year.

 

No one on base, and I don't think there were any outs. Doesn't really matter if their were. Batter hits a shot deep in the hole. I'm on the stick, so I trail him up the first baseline to look for ST/PF. F5 throws to F3 and forces him to jump to field the throw. As he comes down, he stabs at the bag with his foot, and from my position, he narrowly missed it. My partner bangs the BR out......

 

HC of the offensive team does everything right to question the call. He asks for time, gets it, and goes to my partner to ask him if he can get some help on the play. My partner is a relatively new umpire to HS baseball, but he does the right thing and motions for me to get together with him to discuss the call.

 

We stand off to the side, away from everyone, and he asks me if I thought the throw beat the runner. I told him that whether or not the throw beat the runner wasn't my call to make, but that I thought it was close, but it did beat the runner. He then asks me about F3 hitting the bag or not, and I tell him that from my position it looked like he missed it. He tells me that he's pretty sure F3 caught a piece of the bag as he stabbed at it. I tell him that if that's what he had, it's his call, and that's what we should go with.

 

We separate and he reaffirms his out call to the HC, and the HC starts to jump my butt about the call. He tells me that I'm the senior umpire and I have to overturn my younger, newer partner. I tell him that my partner was responsible for the call, and that our decision was final. I ask him to please return the dugout so we can get going again. He decides that his participation is no longer required for the day by telling me that I'm a $hit umpire with no balls, blah, blah, blah......

 

Now, I'm almost positive that I saw the fielder miss the bag, and miss it by a pretty good amount. This ALMOST makes me feel bad about having to run a manager because of a call we made as a crew.

 

Or, maybe not.....................

 

Tim.

NOT!

[mstaylor]

Nope, good toss. You gave your partner the information you had and it used it as he saw fit. Completely correct procedure, coach got stupid, that's not your fault. 

[grayhawk]

It's not like your partner was in B or C on this play. And since he was pretty sure F3 got a piece of the bag and was in the A position, he shouldn't have gone to you in the first place. Do you know what, specifically, the coach asked him to get help on?

Also, it's a no brainer EJ, so if I was you, I wouldn't give it another thought.

[BigUmp56]

I'm not really sure what he asked my partner. I'm guessing he asked him to get help on the fielder's foot not catching the bag when he landed. To me, this is no different than a pulled foot, which is precisely the right situation to ask a partner for help.

 

Tim.

[Magic]

Yeah Grayhawk on this one it is ok to get help on. Great job on the Ejection. Don't beat yourself up over it. He ejected himself. Don't ever let it get personal.

[grayhawk]

Yeah Grayhawk on this one it is ok to get help on. Great job on the Ejection. Don't beat yourself up over it. He ejected himself. Don't ever let it get personal.

 

I guess if he went to Tim with the thought that if Tim was sure that F3 missed the bag, then he would change his call, then it's okay.  Seems like the only play F3 could stab at the bag where BU in A would miss it would be on the foul side.  We just need to be very careful on where we get help - especially from A.

[Specks]

It's not like your partner was in B or C on this play. And since he was pretty sure F3 got a piece of the bag and was in the A position, he shouldn't have gone to you in the first place. Do you know what, specifically, the coach asked him to get help on?

Also, it's a no brainer EJ, so if I was you, I wouldn't give it another thought.

+1

From "A" I'm not going for help, no reason whatsoever. Anything that happens I can take a read step and see it fine. My call all the way. I shouldn't say no reason but I can't think of one. But for the post, EJ was great, you got together at his request and rendered a decision. His actions after was his decision. Anybody can behave when every call goes their way.

[grayhawk]

 

It's not like your partner was in B or C on this play. And since he was pretty sure F3 got a piece of the bag and was in the A position, he shouldn't have gone to you in the first place. Do you know what, specifically, the coach asked him to get help on?

Also, it's a no brainer EJ, so if I was you, I wouldn't give it another thought.

+1

From "A" I'm not going for help, no reason whatsoever. Anything that happens I can take a read step and see it fine. My call all the way. I shouldn't say no reason but I can't think of one. But for the post, EJ was great, you got together at his request and rendered a decision. His actions after was his decision. Anybody can behave when every call goes their way.

 

 

I'm not saying NEVER go for help when in "A" - it's just that in this case the BU already felt confident that F3 got his foot back on the bag.  Given that, I would prefer he tell the coach that he had it all the way.

 

I had a situation with a very senior umpire in my HS association that got straight-lined on a swipe tag at first when he was in "A".  F3 leaped up to glove the throw and when he came down, he tagged the runner's elbow from behind.  He could not see it and called the runner safe.  I stayed in my position at the 45' line to let him know I had something (otherwise, I would have been heading back to the plate).  The coach started to come out and BU comes straight to me and I tell him I am 100% sure he got him on the elbow before BR touched the bag.  He changed the call and nobody complained.

 

So yes, there are times to get help, even when in "A" but I just don't think the OP was one of those cases.

[Specks]

 

 

It's not like your partner was in B or C on this play. And since he was pretty sure F3 got a piece of the bag and was in the A position, he shouldn't have gone to you in the first place. Do you know what, specifically, the coach asked him to get help on?

Also, it's a no brainer EJ, so if I was you, I wouldn't give it another thought.

+1

From "A" I'm not going for help, no reason whatsoever. Anything that happens I can take a read step and see it fine. My call all the way. I shouldn't say no reason but I can't think of one. But for the post, EJ was great, you got together at his request and rendered a decision. His actions after was his decision. Anybody can behave when every call goes their way.

 

 

I'm not saying NEVER go for help when in "A" - it's just that in this case the BU already felt confident that F3 got his foot back on the bag.  Given that, I would prefer he tell the coach that he had it all the way.

 

I had a situation with a very senior umpire in my HS association that got straight-lined on a swipe tag at first when he was in "A".  F3 leaped up to glove the throw and when he came down, he tagged the runner's elbow from behind.  He could not see it and called the runner safe.  I stayed in my position at the 45' line to let him know I had something (otherwise, I would have been heading back to the plate).  The coach started to come out and BU comes straight to me and I tell him I am 100% sure he got him on the elbow before BR touched the bag.  He changed the call and nobody complained.

 

So yes, there are times to get help, even when in "A" but I just don't think the OP was one of those cases.

 

I agree with you, never say never but read steps are what's used for throws that are off line. Your senior partner should have adjusted when he saw the errant throw and F3 move. I just can't see the need to get help on most things, that's my responsibility.

[Magic]

Ball hit to the infield. PU follows the BR up the line for what purpose? To help with Pulled Foot and Swipe Tag. Don't ever be too proud to go for help when needed. Our job is to get the call right. 

[afaber12]

Ball hit to the infield. PU follows the BR up the line for what purpose? To help with Pulled Foot and Swipe Tag. Don't ever be too proud to go for help when needed. Our job is to get the call right.

Also to judge if the BR was in the lane or not, and to cover a ball possibly going out of play...

 

Of course there are going to be times when the way the play develops mean you can't see everything you need to, and having a partner in position to help means you can still make the right call. As its been mentioned to me numerous times by my instructors though, is it can become a bad habit to get in to, leading to you relying on someone else to get your calls. The point was to get help only when absolutely needed. If you're certain the foot was on/off the bag, or that the swipe tag was/wasn't made, then make the call.

 

Down here we've seen a change in officiating in another sport this year that's based on a similar premise. In rugby league - one of the football codes - we have a video referee that the referee on the field can refer decisions to where a try (like a touchdown in NFL) might have been scored. It used to be if the field ref wasn't sure it was referred and the video ref made the call. Now the field ref can still refer the decision, but they have to declare a decision first, and there has to be evidence to overrule - kind of like when a play is reviewed in NFL. I'm pretty sure it's meant fewer referrals, while still getting good quality decisions.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mstaylor]

If you attend a pro clinic they will tell you that the PU trails the BR for help on a swipe or pulled foot. Then they will tell you that if the BU is in A, he has no reason to ask about a pulled foot. I can see need to do it on a very rare occasion but on a once a year basis or longer. 

[Forest Ump]

The BU was not aware of the proper way to precede with a HC requesting help.

 

His conversation with the HC should follow this framework.

 

HC: Can you get help with that?

BU: OK Bob, What exactly do you want me to get help for?

HC: He pulled his foot, Can you ask your partner if he pulled his foot?

BU: OK Bob, I'll ask my partner if he pulled his foot. Bob if you continue to argue this call after I render my decision, you will be ejected from the game. You need to go back to your position now.

BU: (beckons PU to meet away from all) John, do you have a pulled foot on that play? 

PU: No

BU: Bob, the play stands.

or

PU: Yes

BU and PU go together to other HC. PU looks for trouble coming from bench as BU explains why he's changing the call.

 

Every action is clearly defined if it's done this way. The coach has defined exactly what he wants you to get help with. The BU has one specific question to ask the PU. The conversation between the PU and BU is short with only a one word answer, yes or no. Now ejecting the HC is justified because he has received a warning if he argues any more.

 

Working within this framework may have prevented the ejection. Depends on the level and the sophistication of the coaches of course. BigUmp had to take care of business because his partner didn't know how.