Runner hit by strike 3

[jjskitours]

R1 and R3, 1 out, 0-2 count on B4. R1 steals 2nd on the pitch and R3 attempts to steal home but is hit by the pitched ball while sliding into home as the ball passes through the strike zone. The PU calls "Strike 3", "Time"  and  rules B4 out, scores the run by R3. How about R1 - 2nd base or return to 1st base? NF clearly states under Case Book 8.3.1A that R1 gets 2nd base whether he  was stealing or not. OBR scores the run under 6.05(n), but can't find ruling as to R1. What's the rule.  

[soapbox]

Batter out on strikes and return all runners to base at TOP.  Yes or no?

[UmpJM]

Ball is dead.

 

Batter is out.

 

Any other runners receive a one base award, TOP.

 

JM

[Oldcrow]

Ball is dead.

 

Batter is out.

 

Any other runners receive a one base award, TOP.

 

JM

Not disagreeing with you, just wondering why ball is dead?  On a throw that is made in an attempt to throw out a stealing base runner, hits that base runner, it is not a dead ball.

[Larry in TN]

Any other runners receive a one base award, TOP.

 

What rule gives the runners a one-base award?  (Asking, not disagreeing)

[umpcoachfather]

With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on the batter, the runner

attempts to steal home base on a legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the

batter’s strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike Three,†the batter is out and the

run shall not count; before two are out, the umpire shall call “Strike Three,†the ball

is dead, and the run counts.

7.09 It is interference by a batter or a runner when—

(a) After a third strike he clearly hinders the catcher in his attempt to field the ball.

Such batter-runner is out, the ball is dead, and all other runners return to the bases

they occupied at the time of the pitch.

© Before two are out and a runner on third base, the batter hinders a fielder in making

a play at home base; the runner is out;

[grayhawk]

Ball is dead.

Batter is out.

Any other runners receive a one base award, TOP.

JM

Not disagreeing with you, just wondering why ball is dead? On a throw that is made in an attempt to throw out a stealing base runner, hits that base runner, it is not a dead ball.

It wasn't a throw, it was a pitch. What's the first word out of your mouth when an offensive player gets hit with a pitch? "Time!"

[Oldcrow]

 

 

Ball is dead.

Batter is out.

Any other runners receive a one base award, TOP.

JM

Not disagreeing with you, just wondering why ball is dead? On a throw that is made in an attempt to throw out a stealing base runner, hits that base runner, it is not a dead ball.

It wasn't a throw, it was a pitch. What's the first word out of your mouth when an offensive player gets hit with a pitch? "Time!"

 

Just playing devils advocate because I can hear the coach screaming that it wasn't a pitch but rather an attempt to throw out the runner advancing to HP......I do agree. Just wanted to see some responses...

[grayhawk]

Ball is dead.

Batter is out.

Any other runners receive a one base award, TOP.

JM

Not disagreeing with you, just wondering why ball is dead? On a throw that is made in an attempt to throw out a stealing base runner, hits that base runner, it is not a dead ball. It wasn't a throw, it was a pitch. What's the first word out of your mouth when an offensive player gets hit with a pitch? "Time!"

Just playing devils advocate because I can hear the coach screaming that it wasn't a pitch but rather an attempt to throw out the runner advancing to HP......I do agree. Just wanted to see some responses...

I see. Well, it's definitely our job to know if F1 pitched, or legally disengaged prior to the throw.

[Oldcrow]

 

 

 

 

Ball is dead.

Batter is out.

Any other runners receive a one base award, TOP.

JM

Not disagreeing with you, just wondering why ball is dead? On a throw that is made in an attempt to throw out a stealing base runner, hits that base runner, it is not a dead ball. It wasn't a throw, it was a pitch. What's the first word out of your mouth when an offensive player gets hit with a pitch? "Time!" Just playing devils advocate because I can hear the coach screaming that it wasn't a pitch but rather an attempt to throw out the runner advancing to HP......I do agree. Just wanted to see some responses...

I see. Well, it's definitely our job to know if F1 pitched, or legally disengaged prior to the throw.

 

He has to disengage to throw to an unoccupied base in which the runner is trying to advance?

[HeadHunterLA]

I am wondering, has anyone ever seen this actually happen?  20+ years in the business and I sure haven't seen anything come close to this scenario.

[Oldcrow]

OBR rules say a Pitcher can remain in contact with the pitching plate and throw to an unoccupied base to retire an advancing runner.....That being the case, I am still unsure how we can say that a throw to home plate in this case is a pitch and not an attempt to throw out the advancing runner.

 

HeadhunterLA, I have had two bang bang plays on steal of home attempts in my 15 years.... While I have not seen this exact circumstance, it sure would be possible....For me, In both cases the runner was out and I did call the pitch....But I'm just unsure what to tell a manger who would argue that the throw was an the attempt to put out the runner rather than a. pitch in this circumstance

[HeadHunterLA]

OBR rules say a Pitcher can remain in contact with the pitching plate and throw to an unoccupied base to retire an advancing runner.....That being the case, I am still unsure how we can say that a throw to home plate in this case is a pitch and not an attempt to throw out the advancing runner.

 

HeadhunterLA, I have had two bang bang plays on steal of home attempts in my 15 years.... While I have not seen this exact circumstance, it sure would be possible....For me, In both cases the runner was out and I did call the pitch....But I'm just unsure what to tell a manger who would argue that the throw was an the attempt to put out the runner rather than a. pitch in this circumstance

 

Thanks.  I was just curious if anyone had actually seen it happen.  Also, on the pitch vs. throw to retire a runner question.  I think the only way something ends up as a throw to retire the runner without disengaging also ends up being a balk 99% of the time.  I mean we have all seen a runner break from third and a pitcher stops after starting, or in some way alters his normal delivery.  And if he is pitching from the wind up there is no way to legally disengage and try and make a play once his motion has started.

[Oldcrow]

 

OBR rules say a Pitcher can remain in contact with the pitching plate and throw to an unoccupied base to retire an advancing runner.....That being the case, I am still unsure how we can say that a throw to home plate in this case is a pitch and not an attempt to throw out the advancing runner.

 

HeadhunterLA, I have had two bang bang plays on steal of home attempts in my 15 years.... While I have not seen this exact circumstance, it sure would be possible....For me, In both cases the runner was out and I did call the pitch....But I'm just unsure what to tell a manger who would argue that the throw was an the attempt to put out the runner rather than a. pitch in this circumstance

 

Thanks.  I was just curious if anyone had actually seen it happen.  Also, on the pitch vs. throw to retire a runner question.  I think the only way something ends up as a throw to retire the runner without disengaging also ends up being a balk 99% of the time.  I mean we have all seen a runner break from third and a pitcher stops after starting, or in some way alters his normal delivery.  And if he is pitching from the wind up there is no way to legally disengage and try and make a play once his motion has started.

 

 

Yeah, it's a huge gray area that Jaksa-Roder discuss...They claim all that is needed is the runner to be advancing and attempting to acquire the next base....Truly a judgment call if there ever was one.

[UmpJM]

Apparently, the rule was put in place in the 50s to combat a tactic developed by pitchers in the 40s to prevent steals of home. The pitcher would intentionally pitch at the runner on an attempt to steal home. Previously, the ball was simply dead and runners would return to their TOP base. (This is according to Evans in the JEA.)

 

The OBR rule is: 5.09(h)

 

The FED rule is: 8-3-1a (and 5-1-1a).

 

JM

[afaber12]

OBR rules say a Pitcher can remain in contact with the pitching plate and throw to an unoccupied base to retire an advancing runner.....That being the case, I am still unsure how we can say that a throw to home plate in this case is a pitch and not an attempt to throw out the advancing runner.

 

HeadhunterLA, I have had two bang bang plays on steal of home attempts in my 15 years.... While I have not seen this exact circumstance, it sure would be possible....For me, In both cases the runner was out and I did call the pitch....But I'm just unsure what to tell a manger who would argue that the throw was an the attempt to put out the runner rather than a. pitch in this circumstance

 

If its the fielding team's manager who's making the complaint, tell them that if it was a throw and not a pitch then it's not a strike so the batter's not out, and then you have to judge whether the ball got far enough way from home plate that perhaps R1 should be awarded 3rd base.

 

If its the batting team's manager, tell them in your judgement the pitcher didn't alter his normal motion to the plate for a pitch, possibly similar to a slide-step, and it wasn't even a pitch out to help the catcher. "What about the way the pitcher delivered the ball to home plate while in contact with the rubber made you thought it was a throw and not a pitch, coach?"

[mstaylor]

I had an umpire that had a pitcher pitching from the windup. R3 takes off and the pitcher hurried his windup, it was legal, just not normal windup. The manager wanted a balk for the hurried pitch. It was legal, runner was out. 

[jjskitours]

Apparently, the rule was put in place in the 50s to combat a tactic developed by pitchers in the 40s to prevent steals of home. The pitcher would intentionally pitch at the runner on an attempt to steal home. Previously, the ball was simply dead and runners would return to their TOP base. (This is according to Evans in the JEA.)

 

The OBR rule is: 5.09(h)

 

The FED rule is: 8-3-1a (and 5-1-1a).

 

JM

Thanks. This was the response I was looking for.

[UmpK]

I am wondering, has anyone ever seen this actually happen?  20+ years in the business and I sure haven't seen anything come close to this scenario.

Believe it or not, I have.  Only difference is the runner from 3B got a huge jump and crossed the plate standing up before the pitch got to the plate.  If I hadn't seen it I wouldn't have believed it.  14u travel game!  That kid was FAST!