Behind the plate, counter or no?

[BigUmp56]

Thanks for giving us an honest account of how it went, and for being open minded enough to give

the idea a try.

Tim.

[IABlue]

I also used to feel "naked" without a "counter" (proper terminology), but was determined to do away with it this year and have not had a single issue through a full college and then a full high school season.  I will say that I have noticed that guys staring at/obviously clicking their counter after strike 3 or the third out of an inning look like morons.  Glad that's not me anymore.

 

One key factor is how often you have a working scoreboard at your games.  I did work one HS game without a scoreboard and that one was a little dicey, but as the season has progressed I find myself correcting the scoreboard more and more frequently.

 

My last point is that anyone who would ding a PU for not carrying a counter but feels that the BU can get by without one is an idiot.  Either everyone should be forced to have one, or either should have their choice.  Saying that it's mandatory for PU but not BU is beyond stupid and frankly I have trouble taking someone that thinks like that very seriously on a baseball field.

[IABlue]

 

Bottom line -

Use one if you like to or don't use one, it doesn't matter to me either way. Manage the game is the key here.

Everyone has preferences to which mask, shoes whatever they use, so this is a choice as well.

I agree on the bases, on the plate your job is to track the count and this a tool to do so. It's like not wearing plate shoes, a personal choice but not a smart one. 

 

Who the hell are you to tell people what to use/carry/not carry behind the plate?

 

Just because you are incapable of mentally keeping track of 5 or so pitches per batter does not mean that others are so handicapped.

 

I will also point out here that a veteran coach in my area noticed that I wasn't using one the other day and complimented me on it after the game.  I impressed the hell out of that guy.

[HokieUmp]

 

 

Bottom line -

Use one if you like to or don't use one, it doesn't matter to me either way. Manage the game is the key here.

Everyone has preferences to which mask, shoes whatever they use, so this is a choice as well.

I agree on the bases, on the plate your job is to track the count and this a tool to do so. It's like not wearing plate shoes, a personal choice but not a smart one. 

 

Who the hell are you to tell people what to use/carry/not carry behind the plate?

 

Just because you are incapable of mentally keeping track of 5 or so pitches per batter does not mean that others are so handicapped.

 

I will also point out here that a veteran coach in my area noticed that I wasn't using one the other day and complimented me on it after the game.  I impressed the hell out of that guy.

 

 

mstaylor can certainly defend himself, but you might want to stand down, soldier.

 

Aside from the fact that Mike explained further what he meant a post or two before yours, I can tell you that I (and not just a few other people here) would put Mike's body of work/postings up against anyone.  I certainly wouldn't challenge him like that, and maybe with your 19 posts and less-than-one-month of membership, you should reconsider it as well, along with making the mistake that he's incapable in the way that you did.

[BigUmp56]

I would hate to see this thread devolve into a personal pissing contest. There's been too much good discussion in the thread to see it turn completely South. That said, I've known Michael for many years through scores of umpiring forums. I know that he means well, but you can see that earlier in the thread I felt he took it a little far by saying it was a stupid choice to not use one. I'm glad that he clarified that statement, but it's understandable to me how someone could still feel attacked for their choice. Delaware Blue may not have been a member of UE very long, but if it's the same guy I think it is, his credentials certainly stack up with MT's, and if MT wants to insist that what seasoned officials choose to do/not do is a stupid choice, he'll be prepared for the backlash. Mike knows how to swim in the deep end. And I know that he can respect what I'm saying when I say this.

Tim.

[HokieUmp]

I would hate to see this thread devolve into a personal pissing contest. There's been too much good discussion in the thread to see it turn completely South. That said, I've known Michael for many years through scores of umpiring forums. I know that he means well, but you can see that earlier in the thread I felt he took it a little far by saying it was a stupid choice to not use one. I'm glad that he clarified that statement, but it's understandable to me how someone could still feel attacked for their choice. Delaware Blue may not have been a member of UE very long, but if it's the same guy I think it is, his credentials certainly stack up with MT's, and if MT wants to insist that what seasoned officials choose to do/not do is a stupid choice, he'll be prepared for the backlash. Mike knows how to swim in the deep end. And I know that he can respect what I'm saying when I say this.

Tim.

 

I'm not a newbie to the Interwebs, either, but UIC has wanted this board to be different.  I don't think he wants people to have to know 'how to swim in the deep end.'  And despite how it might appear to others, I've certainly not responded in the way I would sometimes like - as I might under other pseudonyms and/or other sites - because I try to honor that.  (even if it kills me, sometimes)

 

People are certainly welcome to call each other out, and you did that, but in my opinion, in such a way as to bring an understanding of positions.  DelawareBlue, I felt, did not.  Thus, my response.  If he's ALSO been around the block, ump- or Interwebs-wise, then he would ALSO know Mike, and should understand.  Another reason not to make the "lack the mental ability" type response.  You may feel otherwise.

[JaxRolo]

@ why are you attacking umpires now. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?

[umpire_scott]

I don't want to speak for Mike, but my feelings on it are that in many ways carrying the indicator is expected of the PU.  It is not expected of the BU.  The PU calls the balls and strikes and he is ALWAYS the authority on what the count is.  With that responsibility also comes some responsibility IMHO to sort of be able to back up your knowledge of the count.  In some respect it would be sort of equivalent to the HT having the "official score" but not keeping a book.  I know that keeping a score is different than keeping a count, so I'm not trying to say they are the same thing, but I just think that having an indicator gives some credibility to the umpires count being accurate.  If a coach ever disputed what the count was, I would want to show that I was consulting my indicator.

[Dragon29]

Either everyone should be forced to have one, or either should have their choice.

 

What the hell does this mean?

 

You got upset becaue someone called a practice you adhere to stupid, so you retaliate by calling others idiots and beyond stupid? In addition, if you review the above statement, I think you'll see it makes very little (actually, to me - no) sense.

 

Use one or don't - there's no need to get all pi$$ed off about it.

[LMSANS]

It took longer than I thought it would, but the indicator issue has turned into personal attacks and sniping.  

 

Getting close to closing time.

[flastyle727]

I don't want to speak for Mike, but my feelings on it are that in many ways carrying the indicator is expected of the PU.  It is not expected of the BU.  The PU calls the balls and strikes and he is ALWAYS the authority on what the count is.  With that responsibility also comes some responsibility IMHO to sort of be able to back up your knowledge of the count.  In some respect it would be sort of equivalent to the HT having the "official score" but not keeping a book.  I know that keeping a score is different than keeping a count, so I'm not trying to say they are the same thing, but I just think that having an indicator gives some credibility to the umpires count being accurate.  If a coach ever disputed what the count was, I would want to show that I was consulting my indicator.

If a coach ever disputed a count to the point of this contention the last thing I'd show him is my indicator. If I carried one that game, which I normally do not, the only time he'd see it would be about the time I am tossing him from the confines of the field and bidding him farewell for continuing to argue balls and strikes. To be honest not many coaches are even familiar with an indicator and it's proper use. The indicator was created to assist with balls and strikes, I am pretty sure it was not invented at the start of baseball. I am also quite certain that umpires worked games for many years before one was developed. I also can tell you that if you botch a count, just because you show 2/2 on your indicator is not going to make the particular coach quit chirpping. Once a RAT starts squeeling, he doesn't stop until he is out of sound distance.

 

 That being said if you like to use one, USE IT. If not, manage the game your way, the key here is GAME MANAGEMENT. If you lose the count, make sure your well versed in verbal combat or pray to the Baseball gods that the kid gets a ground out or pop fly on the next pitch!

[iankelleyumpire]

Personally, I always use one. Not necessarily because I need it, but because it's better to be safe than sorry. I do the adjust mask to glance at it, but most often it is to actually adjust my mask, too.

 

One tip/lesson I've gotten from my main UIC boss, a Div 1 umpire, is that when you're doing higher levels, and have a true scorekeeper/scoreboard person that is running the 60 foot scoreboard, then you don't really need to keep an indicator, rather just keep looking up at the scoreboard.

 

I'll at least keep the count for the first half inning or so, just to make sure the guy running it is actually decent and on the point about it, if not, then go ahead and use it just to be safe. (And keep coaches/spectators off of you, because thats the count they look at)

[mstaylor]

Right off the bat, I explained that I said I would ding an umpire for not carrying an indicator on the plate. If there are no problems then I will mention it, if there are problems then I will criticize that official for it. I did not say I would require anybody to carry one. Some our best umpires do not use one but I don't have to like it. Next I said it was a tool and should be used and making the choice not to carry one is not a smart choice. I will never say an umpire is stupid for not carrying one. I have also enjoyed both this discussion and the balk discussion, it is what the boards are for. The real Delaware Blue is a good friend and is a very well respected contributor to various boards. He is a member here but not under that handle. I do not know the pseudo DB but he has been a negative poster since coming here. I have a feeling I probably know him, he isn't that far away. I will not allow this to become a pissing match, if it does I will simply delete those posts. If someone wants to attack me personally then PM me, I am fine with that. I am certainly capable of defending myself and not easily offended. 

Now back to the discussion. 

[umpire_scott]

 

I don't want to speak for Mike, but my feelings on it are that in many ways carrying the indicator is expected of the PU.  It is not expected of the BU.  The PU calls the balls and strikes and he is ALWAYS the authority on what the count is.  With that responsibility also comes some responsibility IMHO to sort of be able to back up your knowledge of the count.  In some respect it would be sort of equivalent to the HT having the "official score" but not keeping a book.  I know that keeping a score is different than keeping a count, so I'm not trying to say they are the same thing, but I just think that having an indicator gives some credibility to the umpires count being accurate.  If a coach ever disputed what the count was, I would want to show that I was consulting my indicator.

If a coach ever disputed a count to the point of this contention the last thing I'd show him is my indicator. If I carried one that game, which I normally do not, the only time he'd see it would be about the time I am tossing him from the confines of the field and bidding him farewell for continuing to argue balls and strikes. To be honest not many coaches are even familiar with an indicator and it's proper use. The indicator was created to assist with balls and strikes, I am pretty sure it was not invented at the start of baseball. I am also quite certain that umpires worked games for many years before one was developed. I also can tell you that if you botch a count, just because you show 2/2 on your indicator is not going to make the particular coach quit chirpping. Once a RAT starts squeeling, he doesn't stop until he is out of sound distance.

 

 That being said if you like to use one, USE IT. If not, manage the game your way, the key here is GAME MANAGEMENT. If you lose the count, make sure your well versed in verbal combat or pray to the Baseball gods that the kid gets a ground out or pop fly on the next pitch!

 

 

I didn't say I would "show him my indicator".  I said I would show him that I was consulting my indicator.  And I don't think disputing the count is "arguing balls and strikes".  My point is that if a dispute came up AND it was known that I did not have an indicator, then I would feel like I'm opening up a can of worms that I'd rather keep closed.  I just think that if you lose a count AND are not using an indicator it's way worse than if you lose the count while using an indicator.  One says "I forgot to move it or reset it" the other says a myriad of things from "I'm irresponsible and forgot my inidcator" to "I'm arrogant and don't need one".  Now I know that does not apply to anyone that makes a personal choice not to use one.  But the coaches don't know that and I think their perception will not be a good one.

[flastyle727]

 

 

I don't want to speak for Mike, but my feelings on it are that in many ways carrying the indicator is expected of the PU.  It is not expected of the BU.  The PU calls the balls and strikes and he is ALWAYS the authority on what the count is.  With that responsibility also comes some responsibility IMHO to sort of be able to back up your knowledge of the count.  In some respect it would be sort of equivalent to the HT having the "official score" but not keeping a book.  I know that keeping a score is different than keeping a count, so I'm not trying to say they are the same thing, but I just think that having an indicator gives some credibility to the umpires count being accurate.  If a coach ever disputed what the count was, I would want to show that I was consulting my indicator.

If a coach ever disputed a count to the point of this contention the last thing I'd show him is my indicator. If I carried one that game, which I normally do not, the only time he'd see it would be about the time I am tossing him from the confines of the field and bidding him farewell for continuing to argue balls and strikes. To be honest not many coaches are even familiar with an indicator and it's proper use. The indicator was created to assist with balls and strikes, I am pretty sure it was not invented at the start of baseball. I am also quite certain that umpires worked games for many years before one was developed. I also can tell you that if you botch a count, just because you show 2/2 on your indicator is not going to make the particular coach quit chirpping. Once a RAT starts squeeling, he doesn't stop until he is out of sound distance.

 

 That being said if you like to use one, USE IT. If not, manage the game your way, the key here is GAME MANAGEMENT. If you lose the count, make sure your well versed in verbal combat or pray to the Baseball gods that the kid gets a ground out or pop fly on the next pitch!

 

 

I didn't say I would "show him my indicator".  I said I would show him that I was consulting my indicator.  And I don't think disputing the count is "arguing balls and strikes".  My point is that if a dispute came up AND it was known that I did not have an indicator, then I would feel like I'm opening up a can of worms that I'd rather keep closed.  I just think that if you lose a count AND are not using an indicator it's way worse than if you lose the count while using an indicator.  One says "I forgot to move it or reset it" the other says a myriad of things from "I'm irresponsible and forgot my inidcator" to "I'm arrogant and don't need one".  Now I know that does not apply to anyone that makes a personal choice not to use one.  But the coaches don't know that and I think their perception will not be a good one.

 

If your disputing the count, obviously you disagree with how many balls or strikes a batter may have. This is arguing balls and strike and doesn't happen in any game I am the PU. Just like I wouldn't feel the need to discuss why in my judgement the Batter went for it on a check swing, thats balls and strikes.

 

 I agree with your premise that it may look better with an indicator, my point it still remains the same. If you can't manage a game with an indicator and you lose the count, I hope the kid grounds out or pops out or you better be very good at verbal combat  .

[umpire_scott]

 

 

 

I don't want to speak for Mike, but my feelings on it are that in many ways carrying the indicator is expected of the PU.  It is not expected of the BU.  The PU calls the balls and strikes and he is ALWAYS the authority on what the count is.  With that responsibility also comes some responsibility IMHO to sort of be able to back up your knowledge of the count.  In some respect it would be sort of equivalent to the HT having the "official score" but not keeping a book.  I know that keeping a score is different than keeping a count, so I'm not trying to say they are the same thing, but I just think that having an indicator gives some credibility to the umpires count being accurate.  If a coach ever disputed what the count was, I would want to show that I was consulting my indicator.

If a coach ever disputed a count to the point of this contention the last thing I'd show him is my indicator. If I carried one that game, which I normally do not, the only time he'd see it would be about the time I am tossing him from the confines of the field and bidding him farewell for continuing to argue balls and strikes. To be honest not many coaches are even familiar with an indicator and it's proper use. The indicator was created to assist with balls and strikes, I am pretty sure it was not invented at the start of baseball. I am also quite certain that umpires worked games for many years before one was developed. I also can tell you that if you botch a count, just because you show 2/2 on your indicator is not going to make the particular coach quit chirpping. Once a RAT starts squeeling, he doesn't stop until he is out of sound distance.

 

 That being said if you like to use one, USE IT. If not, manage the game your way, the key here is GAME MANAGEMENT. If you lose the count, make sure your well versed in verbal combat or pray to the Baseball gods that the kid gets a ground out or pop fly on the next pitch!

 

 

I didn't say I would "show him my indicator".  I said I would show him that I was consulting my indicator.  And I don't think disputing the count is "arguing balls and strikes".  My point is that if a dispute came up AND it was known that I did not have an indicator, then I would feel like I'm opening up a can of worms that I'd rather keep closed.  I just think that if you lose a count AND are not using an indicator it's way worse than if you lose the count while using an indicator.  One says "I forgot to move it or reset it" the other says a myriad of things from "I'm irresponsible and forgot my inidcator" to "I'm arrogant and don't need one".  Now I know that does not apply to anyone that makes a personal choice not to use one.  But the coaches don't know that and I think their perception will not be a good one.

 

If your disputing the count, obviously you disagree with how many balls or strikes a batter may have. This is arguing balls and strike and doesn't happen in any game I am the PU. Just like I wouldn't feel the need to discuss why in my judgement the Batter went for it on a check swing, thats balls and strikes.

 

 I agree with your premise that it may look better with an indicator, my point it still remains the same. If you can't manage a game with an indicator and you lose the count, I hope the kid grounds out or pops out or you better be very good at verbal combat  .

 

 

There is a rule that "arguing balls and strikes" is forbidden in baseball.  That rule, IMHO pertains to arguing whether a single call I made was a ball or a strike.  In other words arguing whether my judgement of that pitch or other pitches was accurate or not.  To me that is completely different than the coach arguing that I have the wrong count.

[BigUmp56]

I think you're speaking the same language as flastyle. You're just using a different dialect. A MANAGER get's to question the accuracy of the count. He doesn't get to argue about it. There's a difference.....

Tim.

[MT_Blue]

I carry one in both cases (and actually two because i had a game where one broke in the middle), and rarley if ever look at them unless i have a brain fart or am being asked (while in the field ), i have been on the recieving end of having a partner in the field without one, which thankfully nothing went wrong, and i have witnessed one go horribly wrong. after reading through the thread (which seemed to grow while i was reading), if my partner in the field doesnt carry one so be it, if something goes wrong he'll hear about it but other wise their choice, i will always have one.

[flastyle727]

Why would your partner hear about it if something went wrong?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[IABlue]

 

Either everyone should be forced to have one, or either should have their choice.

 

What the hell does this mean?

 

 

It couldn't possibly be any simpler or more self-explanatory.  Maybe you can find a gradeschool kid somewhere that can explain it to you.

 

Either counters are MANDATORY for everyone, or they are optional for everyone.  If you cannot comprehend that statement then I don't know what I can possibly do to help you out.

[JaxRolo]

How long is @ going to be allowed to continue to belittle other umpires on this site?

[flastyle727]

 

 

Either everyone should be forced to have one, or either should have their choice.

 

What the hell does this mean?

 

 

It couldn't possibly be any simpler or more self-explanatory.  Maybe you can find a gradeschool kid somewhere that can explain it to you.

 

Either counters are MANDATORY for everyone, or they are optional for everyone.  If you cannot comprehend that statement then I don't know what I can possibly do to help you out.

 

Next time don't use a "Double-Negative" as a sentence, we learned that in grade school too.

[mstaylor]

 

 

 

 

Replace the second either with their and the statement makes sense.

In your response, leave out the gradeschool remark, it is nonresponsive. 

[BigUmp56]

Replace the second either with their and the statement makes sense.

In your response, leave out the gradeschool remark, it is nonresponsive.

The second "either" would be best replaced with "everyone."

Tim.

[Specks]

I would be in the "carry my indicator" camp, I've always used it and enjoyed the early post from both sides of the topic. I've worked on not looking at it often and I bought the kind that have notches so I can. But until I learned to advance it at the same time every time I would, every now and then, forget if I did advance it. That left me mentally hoping the batter puts the ball in play, not a good feeling. All in all I think it helps me. That being said this last weekend I had a HS double header and as I was getting ready to walk to the field I reached into my box where I keep said device, and to my horror I realized I had left it in my locker. I have never been more focused in a game before! Because I didn't have it to fall back on I announced the count more often and REALLY paid attention. Got thru both games without an issue and promptly went home and orderd 2 more indicators so I'm never without one again.