Need clarification

[amarillo]

Okay this was a question on my dad's fed test this year and I need some help wrapping my head around it

True or false

One run will score if with runners on 3rd and 2nd and two out the batter hits a homerun. The defense successfully appeals the runner from second missing third base.

The answer is true but I need help understanding why it isn't false based on 8-2-6k doesn't a homerun force everyone? Not like the guy on second could say no I am staying here you go on.

Please give me a reference showing where runners aren't considered forced on a homerun

Also where does it say one runner can physically assist another runner?

[Replacematt]

Look at the definition of force. A runner can only be forced if all the bases behind him also have runners.

[UmpJM]

amarillo,

 

It appears you have a basic misconception about what a "force" is. If 1B is unoccupied, there can't be a "force".

 

But the question really doesn't have anything to do with a "force", it has to do with "run nullification" - that is, under what conditions do we take "apparently scored runs" off the board.

 

In this sitch, the R2's run is nullified because his miss of 3B was successfully appealed. The BR's run is nullified because a preceding runner was declared out on appeal for the 3rd out of the half inning, per 9-1-1 Exception c.

 

Make sense?

 

JM

[amarillo]

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

In the above case the batter has become a runner right so based on the definition the runner from second is forced.

[guitarplaya2007]

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

In the above case the batter has become a runner right so based on the definition the runner from second is forced.

You have the definition correct however R2 has not legally lost his right to occupy the base. The Batter runner, in theory, can only "Force" R1 to advance, thus forcing R2 to advance thus forcing R3. Since there is no R1 in this situation there can be no force.

[Jocko]

Put it in a simpler situation for you. R2, R3, 2 outs. B5 hits a double. R3 scores. R2 misses 3B and scores. BR safe at 2B. DT appeals R2 missing 3B. Remove R2s run, inning over.

Same rules are applied to nullify the run in my situation and yours. Remove the word "force" and I think you'll get it. Does that make sense?

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Also where does it say one runner can physically assist another runner?

 

 

 

 

 Where does the rule book prohibit it ? There is a prohibition of a coach "physically assisting" a runner, but there is no such provision for another runner. So if it isn't outlawed......

[amarillo]

Jocko I understand that my question is in a homerun scenario the batter has to go to all four bases right he can't stop at first and say I want it to be a single therefore every runner in front of him is forced to move as well.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Jocko I understand that my question is in a homerun scenario the batter has to go to all four bases right he can't stop at first and say I want it to be a single therefore every runner in front of him is forced to move as well.

 

If the batter-runner misses 1B on a grand slam home run, and is called out upon proper appeal for the 2nd out, how many runs score ?

[basejester]

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

In the above case the batter has become a runner right so based on the definition the runner from second is forced.

That's not how I read it. The batter becoming a runner isn't forcing that runner from second.

Similarly, if the batter hits an ordinary fair ball and advances to second base; the runner starting from second isn't forced.

(Edited due to Jocko's correction.)

Edited February 3, 2013 by basejester

[amarillo]

Base jester but it does if the br hits a home run or a ground rule double where the award dictates he must go to second

On a gap shot nothing dictates the br has to go to second

[GreyhoundAggie]

Jocko I understand that my question is in a homerun scenario the batter has to go to all four bases right he can't stop at first and say I want it to be a single therefore every runner in front of him is forced to move as well.

 

If the batter-runner misses 1B on a grand slam home run, and is called out upon proper appeal for the 2nd out, how many runs score ?

Did you mean for the 3rd out Pete? Cause 2nd out all the other runners score no matter what.

 

If it's the 3rd out, I believe the other runners score in FED because the HR is an award, but in OBR no runs would score because it's a "force out"

 

I could easily be wrong on this one.

[AllanA]

For purposes of an appeal play this isn't considered a force play. When the defense properly appeals the runner missing 3rd base the 1 run would score. The runner at 2nd isn't "forced" by another runner to go to third. Lets say the runner from third scored but the runner from 2nd stayed where was and batter runner passed him for the 3rd out. 1 run would score and batter runner would be out for the 3rd out and end of inning.

[Jocko]

Amarillo, you're reading too much into it. Remove the word force. Noone is forced.

Jester, BR advancing to 2B with R2 no forced does NOT mean R2 must vacate. In your sitch, if both BR and R2 occupy 2B, who is called out if they're both tagged? The following runner (BR).

[basejester]

Base jester but it does if the br hits a home run or a ground rule double where the award dictates he must go to second

On a gap shot nothing dictates the br has to go to second

I think the core issue here is that, in the case of a home run or ground rule double, R2 loses his right to occupy 2B when the batter becomes a runner not because the batter became a runner.

[AllanA]

A runner can aid another runner as long as he doesn't pass him. From BRD 2012 p.201-311:Rumble. Official interp.

[Jocko]

Base jester but it does if the br hits a home run or a ground rule double where the award dictates he must go to secondOn a gap shot nothing dictates the br has to go to second

I think the core issue here is that, in the case of a home run or ground rule double, R2 loses his right to occupy 2B when the batter becomes a runner not because the batter became a runner.another trivial pursuit topic. Guys, it's not difficult. The only baserunner "forced" by Batter becoming a BR is R1. R2 is only forced if R1 is forced. If there is no R1, R2 is not forced. R3 is forced if R2 is forced by R1, who is forced by BR. Umpiring 101. Y'all are making this WWWAAAYYY too hard. With R3 only, is he forced by batter becoming a BR? No. A HR is a 4 base award. It must be executed properly, but it's not a "force" so remove the word from the equation, and it should be crystal clear. SHOULD BE.

[basejester]

Amarillo, you're reading too much into it. Remove the word force. Noone is forced.

Jester, BR advancing to 2B with R2 no forced does NOT mean R2 must vacate. In your sitch, if both BR and R2 occupy 2B, who is called out if they're both tagged? The following runner (BR).

Good point. I stand corrected.

R2 occupies 2B. BR is standing on 2B. BR is in jeopardy.

[basejester]

Base jester but it does if the br hits a home run or a ground rule double where the award dictates he must go to second

Each runner is obligated to comply with the base award, but R2 is not Forced, with a capital F. R2 gets a 2 base or a 4 base award, for GRD or HR, respectively.

[basejester]

another trivial pursuit topic. Guys, it's not difficult. The only baserunner "forced" by Batter becoming a BR is R1. R2 is only forced if R1 is forced.

If you have R1 and R2, R2 is forced by the batter becoming a BR.

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

If the only baserunner forced by a Batter becoming a BR is R1, then a play on R2 would not be a Force Play by the definition.

If there is no R1, R2 is not forced. R3 is forced if R2 is forced by R1, who is forced by BR. Umpiring 101. Y'all are making this WWWAAAYYY too hard.

It's a little bit hard.

[Jocko]

R1 is forced by BR, R2 is force by R1, who is forced by BR. R3 is forced by R2, who is forced by R1, who is forced by BR. Make sense?

[jjskitours]

Jocko I understand that my question is in a homerun scenario the batter has to go to all four bases right he can't stop at first and say I want it to be a single therefore every runner in front of him is forced to move as well.

 

If the batter-runner misses 1B on a grand slam home run, and is called out upon proper appeal for the 2nd out, how many runs score ?

3 runs if it is only the 2nd out as the BR would not score. If already 2 outs and the appeal at 1st base is the 3rd out, no runs score, all rule sets.

[basejester]

Jocko I understand that my question is in a homerun scenario the batter has to go to all four bases right he can't stop at first and say I want it to be a single therefore every runner in front of him is forced to move as well.

If the batter-runner misses 1B on a grand slam home run, and is called out upon proper appeal for the 2nd out, how many runs score ? ^^^ This is a great post.

3