Balk AND Catchers Interference...

[Mr Umpire]

The terminology makes no difference. The balk is in effect throughout the entire play. Once the play is over, the balk penalty is applied if necessary. So, the balk still determines the outcome of the play regardless. Followed by the result of the play, followed by the CI penalty, followed by the balk penalty. The flow is the same regardless of the terminology.

[Guest]

Let's start with: how do you "enforce" a balk but not call the balk or enforce the balk penalty?

[Mr Umpire]

Really? That is the basis of your whole argument. Ok. Use noumpere's terminology in place of mine if it helps you to understand. Irregardless, the chart correctly lays out the flow of how this entire play ends.

Again, the balk is being enforced (evaluated to use noumpere's terms) throughout the entire play. It is the determining factor of how this entire play ends. Whether or not the balk penalty is enforced is a different story.

Let's see by the statement alone:

PENALTY: The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without

liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on

balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in

which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.

The mere fact that it separates the balk rule from the penalty. And, the penalty separates itself from the balk.

[Guest]

I maintain your chart is wrong because of the glaring error in the use of the term "enforce" - that you try to downplay - which is obviously confusing and - even worse - contradictory to what is stated in rules texts. If you believe it is I who am mistaken about the term, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. In my defense, I point to the multiple sections of the MLBUM 7.9 where they direct umpires to "enforce the balk" not "enforce the balk penalty".

I've already said this once. If you want to use your flowchart to get to the end result and you can make it work, go right ahead. My way works too. When you can prove that my way doesn't work, I will look at it further.

[Mr Umpire]

I maintain your chart is wrong because of the glaring error in the use of the term "enforce" - that you try to downplay - which is obviously confusing and - even worse - contradictory to what is stated in rules texts. If you believe it is I who am mistaken about the term, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. In my defense, I point to the multiple sections of the MLBUM 7.9 where they direct umpires to "enforce the balk" not "enforce the balk penalty".

I've already said this once. If you want to use your flowchart to get to the end result and you can make it work, go right ahead. My way works too. When you can prove that my way doesn't work, I will look at it further.

I never said your way didn't work. In fact, I never pointed you out directly for anything. Again, mere semantics and if it bothers you so much, use noumpere's. Never said you couldn't do that. The attempt was to break it down and illustrate for any who are confused on how it works. Not to get your panties in a wad.

The same concept still remains. The balk is the determining factor of how the entire play ends. That is/was the WHOLE PURPOSE of displaying how the flow of this play works. It was not to get someone all riled up on what words are used to illustrate the points.

[basejester]

The same concept still remains. The balk is the determining factor of how the entire play ends. That is/was the WHOLE PURPOSE of displaying how the flow of this play works. It was not to get someone all riled up on what words are used to illustrate the points.

The whole chart is words, circles and lines. Getting the words wrong is not a detail. Enforce in the first circle makes no sense to me.

[Mr Umpire]

The same concept still remains. The balk is the determining factor of how the entire play ends. That is/was the WHOLE PURPOSE of displaying how the flow of this play works. It was not to get someone all riled up on what words are used to illustrate the points.

The whole chart is words, circles and lines. Getting the words wrong is not a detail. Enforce in the first circle makes no sense to me.

The words are not wrong. The balk is enforced by the umpire calling it. The balk penalty being enforced is what separates this. Read noumpere's post to confuse yourself less. Again, wanting to argue just to argue. I think I went through this already with 24.

The rule states "without reference to the balk" not "without enforcing the balk". In other words, ignore the fact that he balked when the play is complete if all criteria is met. But, when the call is made, the balk is being enforced at that moment. Or, should I say, the balk rule is being enforced. The fact that the play is allowed to complete before assessing the penalty is part of enforcing the balk rule. The rest of the play is assessing if the penalty is applied or not.

Oh, and remember, take your english lessons from an umpire's manual or the rule books. They are worded quite well.

[basejester]

The words are not wrong. The balk is enforced by the umpire calling it. The balk penalty being enforced is what separates this. Read noumpere's post to confuse yourself less. Again, wanting to argue just to argue. I think I went through this already with 24.

The rule states "without reference to the balk" not "without enforcing the balk". In other words, ignore the fact that he balked when the play is complete if all criteria is met. But, when the call is made, the balk is being enforced at that moment. The fact that the play is allowed to complete before assessing the penalty is part of enforcing the balk rule. The rest of the play is assessing if the penalty is applied or not.

I appreciate your diagram. It's possible to have this discussion only because you've laid it out neatly.

I understand what you are saying. The whole play is resolved like this:

Balk(Catcher's Interference(Result of the play))

The other items are contained by the application of the balk rule.

There are two problems:

1. In your diagram, you show Enforce the Balk as the first step, not as a label for the whole diagram.
   
   
2. Enforce is the wrong word for the whole process. You're looking for apply or resolve. Enforcing it is when you make people do stuff.
   

[Mr Umpire]

And, when I think of the word "enforce", I think of any of these meanings:

enforce:

1. to ensure observance of or obedience to (a law, decision, etc.)

2. to impose (obedience, loyalty, etc.) by or as by force (I don't think of this one so much)

3. to emphasize or reinforce (an argument, demand, etc.) (I don't think of this one so much)

Therefore, to enforce is to make them comply with the rules for me. Not to make them do something necessarily b/c part of rule 8.05 is not to make them do anything if the criteria is met for this.

[Jocko]

Verb choice is irrelevant. If the criteria is not met for the balk, you apply/enforce/institute/enact/ratify/engage/resolve/rectify/satisfy...whatever. The end result will be the same.

[Mr Umpire]

Verb choice is irrelevant. If the criteria is not met for the balk, you apply/enforce/institute/enact/ratify/engage/resolve/rectify/satisfy...whatever. The end result will be the same.

Thank you.

[basejester]

If the first circle means apply all of the clauses of the balk rule, then it should be drawn all the way around the diagram.

We're not done with applying the balk rule in the first step.

1. Balk goes on the stack.
   
2. Catcher's interference goes on the stack.
   
3. Play goes on the stack.
   
4. Pull play off the stack. Figure out what happened in the play.
   
5. Pull catcher's interference off the stack. Figure out how to apply catcher's interference rule.
   
6. Pull balk off the stack. Figure out how to apply the balk rule.
   

Ump24 wasn't at all wrong to list the last three tasks in the order you do them. That's really useful.

It's only backwards if you want a list in the order of the hierarchy.

For example, what's the procededure for evaluating this expression?

(2*(1+3))^2

1. Add 1 and 3

2. Multiply result by 2

3. Square result

Is that task list "backwards"? Is the square the "determining factor"?

Is this an improvement?

1. Do squaring on what follows

2. Do multiplying by 2 on what follows

3. Do addition on 3 and 4.

[stl_ump]

My head hurts. :smachhead:

[noumpere]

For example, what's the procededure for evaluating this expression?

(2*(1+3))^2

1. Add 1 and 3

2. Multiply result by 2

3. Square result

Is that task list "backwards"? Is the square the "determining factor"?

Is this an improvement?

1. Do squaring on what follows

2. Do multiplying by 2 on what follows

3. Do addition on 3 and 4.

Good analagy recognizing that what's "better" might depend on the individual (you and I might be "wired" different) and the situation (math and baseball might be different).

Plus it might depend on whether and action can be taken or whether the action depends on what happened after. So in the math we're always adding then multiplying then adding, but if it were truly like the play we might be squaring only if we do not multiply, and multiply only if we do not add, but since we added we do not multiply and thus since we do not multiply we do square.

Now my head hurts too.

[Jocko]

I was told there would be no math

[Mr Umpire]

Ump24 wasn't at all wrong to list the last three tasks in the order you do them. That's really useful.

It's only backwards if you want a list in the order of the hierarchy.

I didn't imply/explicitly say he was. The conversation changed once it went to what is the determining factor. Similar to your math problem. The exponent (^2) determines the final outcome of the situation. Here, the balk determines the final outcome of the situation. The diagram, in no way, changes what was said. It just laid out the process of how you get to the results.

Also, technically, we do not "enforce a balk". We enforce rule 8.05 (AKA: the balk rule) if you want to know what is being enforced. A balk is something the pitcher does which is why the penalty says "without reference to the balk".

And, we do not "enforce catcher's interference". We enforce rule 6.08( c ).

As another poster said one time but I will paraphrase "The diagram is not all encompassing". It was meant to be shorthand b/c putting the actual words it would have taken to lay things out correctly for the "literal" ones would have taken up the entire screen and then some.

[Jocko]

As another poster said one time but I will paraphrase "The diagram is not all encompassing". It was meant to be shorthand b/c putting the actual words it would have taken to lay things out correctly for the "literal" ones

"Obviously we don't have the whole story since it has changed in 3 different posts."

Not so easy getting one's point across without expounding, is it?

[Mr Umpire]

As another poster said one time but I will paraphrase "The diagram is not all encompassing". It was meant to be shorthand b/c putting the actual words it would have taken to lay things out correctly for the "literal" ones

"Obviously we don't have the whole story since it has changed in 3 different posts."

Not so easy getting one's point across without expounding, is it?

:angel4:

[Stretch]

There was a similar thread on this topic.

From page 2 of "Balk with catcher's interference" topic in Rules:

Posted by umpschool:

"If I could chime in:

We teach that you enforce penalties as the provisions provide for. For instance, in order for a balk to be nullified, all runners including the batter must advance one base safely. However, if it is followed by a catcher's interference, you must first enforce the catcher's interference (if necessary) to see if all runners, including the BR advance. And that requires that you let the entire play end. Take the following play:

Bases loaded, no one out. Pitcher balks, followed by catcher's interference. The batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop in the hole, who throws to first to retire the BR. However, on the play, R2 rounds third and heads for home. He is called safe on a close play at the plate. At the end of the play, R3 and R2 have scored. R1 advanced to second base, and the BR was thrown out at first.

It seems that out of all the answers on here, none (that I have quickly glanced over) would have been correct. I've seen two camps of explanation in this thread. Let me show you how each is in error.

The first camp says that you should enforce the balk as soon as the BR was put out because they all didn't advance one base safely. This is not appropriate because the catcher's interference (listed as "or otherwise" in the balk penalty) has not been enforced. Enforcing only the balk would create this situation -- R3 scores, R2 is awarded third base, R1 is awarded second base, and the BR is returned to bat with the previous count.

The second camp insists that you enforce the catcher's interference (they're right, BTW), but that you should also kill the play right away (they're wrong, BTW). Enforcing it this way would create this situation -- The BR is awarded first base, R1 is awarded second base, R2 is awarded third base, and R3 is awarded to score. Now that all runners, including the BR, have advanced one base safely, the balk is nullified. If the offensive manager wanted to elect to take the results of the play (because he's greedy), he has the right to do so. Problem is, there are no results under this interpretation because you killed it right away.

Now let's say you leave it in play and R2 is called safe. Since they did not all advance a base safely, you enforce the catcher's interference. But now the manager comes out and says, "I want R2 to score. I elect to take the results of the play."

You would then rule on that election. R3 would score, R2 would score, R1 would be awarded second base, and the BR would be called out.

After all the runners then reach their awarded bases, all runners, including the BR, have now NOT advanced a base safely. You would then enforce the balk penalty after all. Enforcing the balk would create this situation -- R3 scores, R2 is awarded third base, R1 is awarded second base, and the BR is returned to bat with the previous count.

Once they ask for it, they can't go back. Yes, they still only have one run score, but the BR isn't standing on first base. Instead, he'll be batting again, and first base is empty. They're required to know the rules too."

I hope this helps with the OP question.

[umpschool]

Ditto

[basejester]

. . .

There was a similar thread on this topic.Once they ask for it, they can't go back. Yes, they still only have one run score, but the BR isn't standing on first base. Instead, he'll be batting again, and first base is empty. They're required to know the rules too."

In this spectrum, what level of helpfulnes is appropriate?

1. "What do you want to do here?"
   
2. "Do you want the result of the play, or the catcher's interference penalty?"
   
3. "Do you want the result of the play, or the catcher's interference penalty? Remember, we have a balk ruling pending."
   
4. "You have the option of taking the result of the play or the catcher's interference penalty, which is to award first base to the batter. If you take the result of the play, the balk penalty will be enforced after that, which will put the batter at bat and each of your runners advanced one base."
   

Does the level of play affect your answer?

[Mr Umpire]

. . .

There was a similar thread on this topic.Once they ask for it, they can't go back. Yes, they still only have one run score, but the BR isn't standing on first base. Instead, he'll be batting again, and first base is empty. They're required to know the rules too."

In this spectrum, what level of helpfulnes is appropriate?

1. "What do you want to do here?"
   
   
2. "Do you want the result of the play, or the catcher's interference penalty?"
   
   
3. "Do you want the result of the play, or the catcher's interference penalty? Remember, we have a balk ruling pending."
   
   
4. "You have the option of taking the result of the play or the catcher's interference penalty, which is to award first base to the batter. If you take the result of the play, the balk penalty will be enforced after that, which will put the batter at bat and each of your runners advanced one base."
   

Does the level of play affect your answer?

Yes. Remember, we are not dealing with professional managers. These are amateurs who do not devote their lives to the game. Not even the former players who think they know something about the rules and are usually the worst attitudes. They think umpires should bow down to them.

You can start with explaining it to the HC or simply enforce the 6.08( c ) and then go to him to explain his options. I would leave it at "Do you want the result of the play or do you want to the result of catcher's interference?" I would not break down how each will end up b/c he is suppose to know how the entire play occurred if he paid attention. For under 13 year olds, I may explain the part of a balk also being called. But not after that.

[UmpTTS43]

In amatuer ball, including college, it is advised that you give the options with their results as part of the explanation.