Swing on IBB - strike?

[Jocko]

So for the call it a ball camp, what the difference if on a 0-0 count, F1 throws a pitchout and batter swings, whatcha got?

[basejester]

So for the call it a ball camp, what the difference if on a 0-0 count, F1 throws a pitchout and batter swings, whatcha got?

Probably a strike. Is he striking at it? Or just swinging the bat around?

[RC@54OUTS]

rules are the rules. it's like time limits. ever have a coach go tomthe mound more than usual? all sharp'coaches figure out the loop holes. here's my situation. USSSA game. late in the game with R2 and R3 with two outs. earlier player gets ejected for MC. his at bat is on deck. they IBB the batter and the on dec is an automatic out. inning over. bush? maybe. it's the rules.

[Jocko]

Exact sitch as OP,, just a different count. He's protecting his R1 stealing. He's got the hit and run. Or he just plain swings. Who gives a s**t? He swung.

[Jocko]

rules are the rules. it's like time limits. ever have a coach go tomthe mound more than usual? all sharp'coaches figure out the loop holes. here's my situation. USSSA game. late in the game with R2 and R3 with two outs. earlier player gets ejected for MC. his at bat is on deck. they IBB the batter and the on dec is an automatic out. inning over. bush? maybe. it's the rules.

BTDT. Exact same game ending out. Smart move to me.

[Rich Ives]

Rich, I'm too smart to lose a protest. I control my side of the conversation, after all. I'd never say more than, "He didn't offer." And when you tried to get me to say more, I wouldn't. Good luck with that.

Little League has in it's pledge, "I will play fair." Any coach that pulls this crap in a Little League game is a rat, pure and simple.

You'd lose. You aren't the only one that turns in a report.

It'a not crap. It's a legitimate move. MLB players have done it for deity's sake, if for no other reason that to PO the pitcher..

You talk about playing fair then say you'll pull this lying bullSH*# - who the hell are you kidding?

I've won every protest I've been involved in - 3 if you want to know how many - 2 as a manager and 1 as an umpire..

[basejester]

Exact sitch as OP,, just a different count. He's protecting his R1 stealing. He's got the hit and run. Or he just plain swings. Who gives a s**t? He swung.

Presumably in the hit & run, he's actually trying to hit the ball, which I think is different than trying to get a strike called. The rule doesn't use the word swing.

I could be wrong, of course. I'm just talking this through.

[basejester]

Rich, I'm too smart to lose a protest. I control my side of the conversation, after all. I'd never say more than, "He didn't offer." And when you tried to get me to say more, I wouldn't. Good luck with that.

Little League has in it's pledge, "I will play fair." Any coach that pulls this crap in a Little League game is a rat, pure and simple.

I wouldn't fault the offense for trying to add to the pitch count. The defense calling for an intentional walk in Little League is lawyer-ball in the first place, unless it's a big tournament.

[Jocko]

Exact sitch as OP,, just a different count. He's protecting his R1 stealing. He's got the hit and run. Or he just plain swings. Who gives a s**t? He swung.

Presumably in the hit & run, he's actually trying to hit the ball, which I think is different than trying to get a strike called. The rule doesn't use the word swing.

I could be wrong, of course. I'm just talking this through.

How am I to know it's a hit and run? I don't pay attention to their signals. I'm not leaving strikes on the table. It's ridiculous to think that I'm supposed to care why he swung. He went. Period.

[carolinablue]

Ok, here's a situation. LL regional championship. Big potatoes, at least as far as LL is concerned. Team A vs Team B. Team A has a dominant pitcher and Team B has a dominant hitter. He has already hit multiple HR's in the tournament and no one can seem to get him out.

Team A decides to take his bat out of the game and walks him every time he comes to the plate. The batter following him has been no help, he has struck out every time.

Bottom of 6, Team B at bat . Team A leads 1-0. Team B has managed to scratch out a couple of baserunners and now have R2 and R3 with 2 outs and the big hitter coming to bat. Team A's pitcher has 5 pitches left. Of course they begin to intentionally walk him. Team B's manager realizes that if he walks him on 4, he could still face the next batter whom he has struck out each time because he will still have one pitch left. The coach tells him to swing at one of the balls to get the dominant pitcher out of the game and give the next batter a better chance to win the game.

For those who don't work LL, under their pitch count rule a pitcher can finish an at bat even though he may reach his limit during that at bat. So Team A's pitcher, having one pitch, could still pitch to the next batter until he is put out or reaches base.

So, it seems that some guys are saying they would call the swing by the batter a ball. That call could very well change the outcome of the game. On one hand it's OK. for Team A to take Team B's batter out of the game but not OK. for team B to counter by trying to get Team A's pitcher out. It seems like solid strategy to me.

[Jocko]

Ok, here's a situation. LL regional championship. Big potatoes, at least as far as LL is concerned. Team A vs Team B. Team A has a dominant pitcher and Team B has a dominant hitter. He has already hit multiple HR's in the tournament and no one can seem to get him out.

Team A decides to take his bat out of the game and walks him every time he comes to the plate. The batter following him has been no help, he has struck out every time.

Bottom of 6, Team B at bat no score. Team B has managed to scratch out a couple of baserunners and now have R2 and R3 with 2 outs and the big hitter coming to bat. Team A's pitcher has 5 pitches left. Of course they begin to intentionally walk him. Team B's manager realizes that if he walks him on 4, he could still face the next batter whom he has struck out each time because he will still have one pitch left. The coach tells him to swing at one of the balls to get the dominant pitcher out of the game and give the next batter a better chance to win the game.

For those who don't work LL, under their pitch count rule a pitcher can finish an at bat even though he may reach his limit during that at bat. So Team A's pitcher, having one pitch, could still pitch to the next batter until he is put out or reaches base.

So, it seems that some guys are saying they would call the swing by the batter a ball. On one hand it's OK. for Team A to take Team B's batter out of the game but not OK. for team B to counter by trying to get Team A's pitcher out. It seem like solid strategy to me.

I agree. Good managers (Iknow) will utilize everything at their disposal to give themselves a LEGAL advantage. Let the managers manage. You want them to let you be the umpire, let them be the manager. This is stupid. I'm out.

[NFUA_44]

Rich, I'm too smart to lose a protest. I control my side of the conversation, after all. I'd never say more than, "He didn't offer." And when you tried to get me to say more, I wouldn't. Good luck with that.

Little League has in it's pledge, "I will play fair." Any coach that pulls this crap in a Little League game is a rat, pure and simple.

So when a simple question is asked of you in this is situation your just not going to say anything? Seriously.

RichMSN: He didn't offer

Williamsport: Did he swing the bat?

RichMSN: He didn't offer

Williamsport: Did he swing the bat?

Not sure how you avoid this conversation if your taking a protest to Williamsport. You are talking about their tourney where nothing else happens until Williamsport makes a protest decision, and your going to just not answer the question? Seriously?

I do understand what your getting at, and I've watched you post here and various other places over the last several years, I'm finding it tough to understand how you can ignore a fact.

Balls and strikes that aren't SWUNG AT happen to be judgment calls. You can't change what actually happened based on some judgment your trying to come up with. Nice try though.

[Rich Ives]

The umpire doesn't make the call - the TD makes the call - but only after the TD makes a ruling and then only if the "loser" of the protest wants to continue. The TD will have in all likelihood seen the swing, may ask for other input, and will not for one second buy the "he didn't offer" position that is proffered by the umpire.

[NFUA_44]

grayhawk,

This is from your OP:

Batter swings the bat, but makes no effort whatsoever to contact the pitch. It looked more like a practice swing with the barrel at the knees. (emphasis mine)

A check or half-swing requires us to make a judgment or to seek help from our partner. Everything that was alluded to in the OP has to do with a batter swinging a bat. There is no intent needed, nor a judgment to be made, the facts are simple. A pitch was delivered, it was swung at end of story.

If it's 0-2 and the pitch is 15' outside the batters box, but B1 decides to swing at it for an uncaught K3, are you gonna instead rule it a ball and not allow him to advance, since he certainly couldn't have had intent to swing at a pitch waaaaaay out there. Keep it simple.

[wek29]

What if it were the other way around and it was 2 strikes and he took a swing at a wild pitch to get the uncaught 3rd strike? Again, absolutely no intent to hit the ball.

*Guess I should refresh my screen from last night before posting ^^^^ :smachhead: :smachhead:

[Rich Ives]

What if it were the other way around and it was 2 strikes and he took a swing at a wild pitch to get the uncaught 3rd strike? Again, absolutely no intent to hit the ball.

*Guess I should refresh my screen from last night before posting ^^^^ :smachhead:

I've seen MLB players do this. It's legit.

[Rich Ives]

The umpire doesn't make the call - the TD makes the call - but only after the TD makes a ruling and then only if the "loser" of the protest wants to continue. The TD will have in all likelihood seen the swing, may ask for other input, and will not for one second buy the "he didn't offer" position that is proffered by the umpire.

AND only a manager can protest - if the umpire doesn't like the answer it's tough cookies for him.

[soapbox]

_{Just sounds like a coach doing their job and I need to do mine. Batter swings, that's a strike. It really is no different then dusk on it's way and coach making a pitching change. As long as he does it timely, why should I rule any differently than doing it earlier in the game. And I can't tell} F1 _{he can't have his mandated warm-ups. If he parades} F1 _after F1_{, different story, but no different than in football using clock management. Just out of curiosity, is it possible that} F1 _{now with a 3-1 count comes a little too close to the plate and the kid smacks a hit because he got another chance. Seems cut and dry. Just for argument sake, what would you do if a coach was in the lead, knew darkness could be an issue, was beating the other team, and sent 3 kids up to strike out on 9 consecutive pitches so the other team could get last ups. Do I rule they never intended to hit the ball so maybe they weren't strikes?}

[RichMSN]

The umpire doesn't make the call - the TD makes the call - but only after the TD makes a ruling and then only if the "loser" of the protest wants to continue. The TD will have in all likelihood seen the swing, may ask for other input, and will not for one second buy the "he didn't offer" position that is proffered by the umpire.

AND only a manager can protest - if the umpire doesn't like the answer it's tough cookies for him.

But the manager doesn't get on the phone -- the TD or his representative does. In our district, that's typically a district umpire. And that umpire will know exactly what to say, too.

As I said before, this hasn't happened to me. If it did, I'm not sure I'd do this, either.

But don't tell me you could protest a ball/strike decision and win. At the end of the day whether I think a batter offered or not belongs to me and me alone. And since there's no requirement in LL baseball that I ask for help on a checked/half swing, that's a non-starter, too.

(If you guys haven't figured this out, I'm mainly arguing for arguing's sake -- but it's fun riling everyone up. Especially Rich, who hasn't been wrong since he found the Internet and probably still hasn't umpired a game.)

[basejester]

How am I to know it's a hit and run?

I'm not suggesting you need to know that. You would be judging whether or not he's trying to strike the ball.

It's ridiculous to think that I'm supposed to care why he swung. He went. Period.

When a batter holds the bat in the zone but doesn't touch the ball, the umpire has to judge whether or not he's attempting to meet the ball.

When a pitch is thrown near a batter and he swings the bat through the zone, the umpire has to judge if his intent is to avoid the ball or to strike the ball.

When a runner kicks a thrown ball, the umpire has to judge if his intent is to run or to deflect the ball.

It might be that batters can voluntarily acquire strategic strikes, but there is precedent for an umpire judging intent.

[basejester]

I've seen MLB players do this. It's legit.

What standard would you use to judge when it would be too late for the batter to swing for this purpose?

How in general do you decide it's time to call a ball?

[grayhawk]

I traded emails with PU on this play and he, in fact, did not see the swing. The pitch was so high and so far outside, and the swing so late that with him tracking the pitch to the catcher's mitt, the swing was out of his peripheral vision. He said they got the crew together and they decided to go ahead and call it an offer even though is was late and no where near the pitch (so they agreed with the majority here).

Look, I understand where everyone is coming from, and the "call it a strike" end of the stick is probably a little less smelly. However, this is a pure rules interpretation. People keep saying it was a "swing" so it has to be a strike. 2.00 does not have the word "swing" in it. Again, a stike is a legal pitch that is "struck AT" and missed. I am telling you that there is no doubt that the batter did not "strike AT" the pitch - period. As for a protest, I would simply say that the batter did not "stike at" the pitch because it was already in the catcher's mitt by the time he swung the bat, and he made no attempt whatsoever to contact the ball with the bat. If the TD, Western Region or WP disagreed, then so be it.

To address the sportsmanship of this act, I believe it is well within the rules to ask a batter to try to add a pitch to F1's count, and I don't think its unsporting at all. One of the most important things, as a coach, that you can do in Little League is manage pitch counts - both by your pitchers and your opponent's pitchers. It's very common to ask your players to take until they get a strike, or even take 2 until they get a strike. If an opponent's F1 who has been dominant has 2 pitches left, you make sure your batter doesn't take the bat off his shoulder for the first pitch. If they can use strategy to issue an IBB, then the opposing coach can use strategy to add one more pitch to the count. I would just tell my batter to at least make it look good by reaching out for the pitch instead of mimicking a golf swing on a pitch that is 4 feet outside and so high F2 has to jump to catch it.

[wek29]

What if it were the other way around and it was 2 strikes and he took a swing at a wild pitch to get the uncaught 3rd strike? Again, absolutely no intent to hit the ball.

*Guess I should refresh my screen from last night before posting ^^^^ :smachhead:

I've seen MLB players do this. It's legit.

I know it's legit...I guess it was more of a, "how is this different" question. I just hadn't refreshed the page since yesterday and didn't realize the post before mine had the same example.

[NFUA_44]

The umpire doesn't make the call - the TD makes the call - but only after the TD makes a ruling and then only if the "loser" of the protest wants to continue. The TD will have in all likelihood seen the swing, may ask for other input, and will not for one second buy the "he didn't offer" position that is proffered by the umpire.

AND only a manager can protest - if the umpire doesn't like the answer it's tough cookies for him.

But the manager doesn't get on the phone -- the TD or his representative does. In our district, that's typically a district umpire. And that umpire will know exactly what to say, too.

As I said before, this hasn't happened to me. If it did, I'm not sure I'd do this, either.

But don't tell me you could protest a ball/strike decision and win. At the end of the day whether I think a batter offered or not belongs to me and me alone. And since there's no requirement in LL baseball that I ask for help on a checked/half swing, that's a non-starter, too.

(If you guys haven't figured this out, I'm mainly arguing for arguing's sake -- but it's fun riling everyone up. Especially Rich, who hasn't been wrong since he found the Internet and probably still hasn't umpired a game.)

In that case, Well Done sir!

Most things that get our brains engaged at some level are a good tool irregardless of your viewpoint. Besides I might just learn sumtin.

[Jocko]

The umpire doesn't make the call - the TD makes the call - but only after the TD makes a ruling and then only if the "loser" of the protest wants to continue. The TD will have in all likelihood seen the swing, may ask for other input, and will not for one second buy the "he didn't offer" position that is proffered by the umpire.

AND only a manager can protest - if the umpire doesn't like the answer it's tough cookies for him.

But the manager doesn't get on the phone -- the TD or his representative does. In our district, that's typically a district umpire. And that umpire will know exactly what to say, too.

As I said before, this hasn't happened to me. If it did, I'm not sure I'd do this, either.

But don't tell me you could protest a ball/strike decision and win. At the end of the day whether I think a batter offered or not belongs to me and me alone. And since there's no requirement in LL baseball that I ask for help on a checked/half swing, that's a non-starter, too.

(If you guys haven't figured this out, I'm mainly arguing for arguing's sake -- but it's fun riling everyone up. Especially Rich, who hasn't been wrong since he found the Internet and probably still hasn't umpired a game.)

irregardless

Kind of redundant, isn't it? Kind of redundant, isn't it?