Pitchers Glove

[ehawkins1]

I had this last week in a Little League 10 and under game. Top 4 and the HT brings in a new pitcher that has a 1B glove on. AC comes out to argue that he can't wear a first basemans mitt that he has to wear a regular glove. I told him the color was all brown, and not a distraction as far as I was concerned, but he kept on that he couldn't wear it. HC didn't want to start a hassle (up by 12 runs) and had the kid change the glove. Was I correct in he could wear whatever type of glove he wanted to as long as the color didn't blend with the uniform or can he not pitch with a first basemans mitt? Thank all!!

[semper_fi_72]

I had this last week in a Little League 10 and under game. Top 4 and the HT brings in a new pitcher that has a 1B glove on. AC comes out to argue that he can't wear a first basemans mitt that he has to wear a regular glove. I told him the color was all brown, and not a distraction as far as I was concerned, but he kept on that he couldn't wear it. HC didn't want to start a hassle (up by 12 runs) and had the kid change the glove. Was I correct in he could wear whatever type of glove he wanted to as long as the color didn't blend with the uniform or can he not pitch with a first basemans mitt? Thank all!!

No

First Base glove can only be worn by F3!!!!!!

[Rich Ives]

What Semper said . . .

[UmpJM]

ehawkins,

It depends. Was that particular 1st baseman's glove within the size and construction constraints defined for e regular fielder's glove?

If it was it's legal. If it exceeded those constraints, as a 1st baseman;s glove may by rule, it is not legal for the pitcher to wear.

IMHO, the opposing coach was a bit of a d**k for even bringing it up in a 10U game.

JM

[mstaylor]

In OBR fielders wear gloves, F3 can wear a mitt and F2 must wear a catcher's mitt. What you said is true in HS but he has a ways to go before that kicks in.

[Rich Ives]

ehawkins,

It depends. Was that particular 1st baseman's glove within the size and construction constraints defined for e regular fielder's glove?

If it was it's legal. If it exceeded those constraints, as a 1st baseman's glove may by rule, it is not legal for the pitcher to wear.

JM

This is about a LL game.

Not true in LL/OBR. Pitcher (and 6 of the other fielders) has to wear a glove. Only F3 and F2 may wear mitts.

In LL the catcher has to wear a catrcher's mitt. By process of elimination, in LL only F3 can wear a 1B mitt. F3 can wear a glove if he wishes.

[BigSimonia]

According to FED 1-3-6 ANY player can wear a glove/mitt (as long as it meets the specs set forth in 1-3-6):

"There is not a distinction.between a glove or mitt." "Gloves/mitts that meet the maximum specification are legal" (Casebook 1.3.6 Situation C).

There are no separate specifications for a catchers or first-baseman's mitt.

The rule specifically says these requirements apply to "all fielders except the catcher" but there is no separate specification for the catchers mitt and the index entry for "Catcher: Glove" refers you back to these specifications.

This didn't sound right to me either, but there you have it.

[Rich Ives]

According to FED 1-3-6 ANY player can wear a glove/mitt (as long as it meets the specs set forth in 1-3-6):

"There is not a distinction.between a glove or mitt." "Gloves/mitts that meet the maximum specification are legal" (Casebook 1.3.6 Situation C).

There are no separate specifications for a catchers or first-baseman's mitt

This didn't sound right to me either, but there you have it.

Who cares? The game in question was a LL game, not played under FED rules. OBR and LL agree - the pitcher may only wear a glove. 1.14

[BigSimonia]

Also - If I'm reading OBR 1.13 and FED 1-3-6 correctly, any "MLB legal" first baseman's mitt meets the FED 1-3-6 requirements of a "glove"

OBR - 1st baseman's mitt must be no longer than 12 inches (top to bottom) and no wider than 8 inches.(across palm) with webbing no wider than 4 inches at top; 3 1/2 inches at bottom and no longer than 5 inches.

FED - All gloves/mitts must be no longer than 14 inches (top to bottom) and no wider than 8 inches.(across palm) with webbing no wider than 5 3/4 inches measured along any line parralel to the top.

So, as I read this, under FED, any MLB-compliant first baseman's mitt can be worn by any fielder (even the catcher(?)) at any position.

Like I said, doesn't sound right, but there you have it.

[BigSimonia]

According to FED 1-3-6 ANY player can wear a glove/mitt (as long as it meets the specs set forth in 1-3-6):

"There is not a distinction.between a glove or mitt." "Gloves/mitts that meet the maximum specification are legal" (Casebook 1.3.6 Situation C).

There are no separate specifications for a catchers or first-baseman's mitt

This didn't sound right to me either, but there you have it.

Who cares? The game in question was a LL game, not played under FED rules. OBR and LL agree - the pitcher may only wear a glove. 1.14

mstaylor had mentioned FED in a previous post. Didn't mean to highjack the thread. You may now return to your regularly scheduled activities.

[mstaylor]

In the OP, he can't wear it. In Fed, if you have any question, go back about five years and there was a picture of a pitcher wearing a hook.

[UmpJM]

If it meets the specifications outlined in OBR 1.14 it is legal.

The primary "legal" difference in a 1st baseman's glove/mitt is that it can have a bigger "pocket" than a regular fielder's glove.

A 10 year old's 1st baseman's mitt could easily meet the constraints defined in OBR 1.14 (and, of course, 1.15). If it does, it's legal.

JM

[Rich Ives]

If it meets the specifications outlined in OBR 1.14 it is legal.

The primary "legal" difference in a 1st baseman's glove/mitt is that it can have a bigger "pocket" than a regular fielder's glove.

A 10 year old's 1st baseman's mitt could easily meet the constraints defined in OBR 1.14 (and, of course, 1.15). If it does, it's legal.

JM

What you are missing is that a mitt is not a glove. Therefore it is not legal for the pitcher.

[Rich Ives]

. . . . . . . where's the delete button?

[UmpJM]

Rich,

Can you point me to the rule that defines what is a "glove" and what is a "mitt"?

Of course you can't, because it doesn't exist. Because it is immaterial and not the point of the rule.

The rule is to limit the overall size of the mitt and the construction and size of the pocket ("webbing") to limit the degree of advantage afforded the fielder in gaining possession of the ball.

If the "fielding leather" meets the constraints defined in 1.14, it is, de jure, legal.

Besides, the OP said it was a 1st baseman's glove, anyway.

JM

[Rich Ives]

John - it isn't legal - period. Lou, Mike, and I agree.

Saying you don't know the difference between a mitt and a glove is disingenuous.

[BigSimonia]

John - it isn't legal - period. Lou, Mike, and I agree.

Saying you don't know the difference between a mitt and a glove is disingenuous.

$.02 - What he's saying is that the OBR (and FED, for that matter) DO NOT define the term "mitt" or "glove". Instead they have maximum dimensions for whatever leather device you want to stick your hand into. As long as your "fielding leather" does not exceed those dimensions, it's legal. Saying there is no officially recognized difference between a "mitt" and a "glove" is not disingenous, it's true.

[UmpJM]

John - it isn't legal - period. Lou, Mike, and I agree.

Saying you don't know the difference between a mitt and a glove is disingenuous.

Rich,

I didn't say that.

I said it is immaterial to the rule.

As we both know, "mitt" and "glove" are used interchangeably in conversation when referring to "fielding leather".

There is nothing in the rule or history of the rule that suggests the difference is material or relevant.

If it meets the criteria, it is, by rule, legal.

Perhaps Michael is mistaken. Here's what Evans has to say on the subject:

Customs And Usage: A catcher can legally use a first baseman's glove/mitt since the size specifications are less

than those allowed a catcher's mitt. A first baseman, however, cannot ordinarily use a catcher's mitt because its

specifications are greater than those allowed a first baseman. There could be an exception if the catcher's mitt were

smaller than the "typical" mitt and fit within the restrictions specified in 1.13.

Both catchers and first basemen may wear an ordinary fielder's glove since its specification maximums are less

than either.

For the sake of argument, what "advantage" would the rules makers be intending to prevent in prohibiting a fielder (other than F2 or F3) from using a "mitt"?

JM

[Rich Ives]

John - it isn't legal - period. Lou, Mike, and I agree.

Saying you don't know the difference between a mitt and a glove is disingenuous.

Rich,

I didn't say that.

I said it is immaterial to the rule.

As we both know, "mitt" and "glove" are used interchangeably in conversation when referring to "fielding leather".

There is nothing in the rule or history of the rule that suggests the difference is material or relevant.

If it meets the criteria, it is, by rule, legal.

Perhaps Michael is mistaken. Here's what Evans has to say on the subject:

Customs And Usage: A catcher can legally use a first baseman's glove/mitt since the size specifications are less

than those allowed a catcher's mitt. A first baseman, however, cannot ordinarily use a catcher's mitt because its

specifications are greater than those allowed a first baseman. There could be an exception if the catcher's mitt were

smaller than the "typical" mitt and fit within the restrictions specified in 1.13.

Both catchers and first basemen may wear an ordinary fielder's glove since its specification maximums are less

than either.

For the sake of argument, what "advantage" would the rules makers be intending to prevent in prohibiting a fielder (other than F2 or F3) from using a "mitt"?

JM

One More Time:

The OP was about LL. In LL only F3 can use a F3 mitt.

From the 2012 LL RIM under 1.13

Instructor comments:

In Baseball, only the first baseman may wear a first baseman’s mitt.

I have a picture of Ben that say a "normal" fielder or pitcher cannot use a 1B mitt under OBR.

[BigSimonia]

"Instructor comments:

In Baseball, only the first baseman may wear a first baseman’s mitt. "

Well that statement is clearly not true (unless by the word "Baseball" you mean "Little League") Even Rich has to admit that "Baseball" and "Little League" are not synonymous

[mstaylor]

From the 2012 OBR:

1.12 The catcher may wear a leather mitt not more than thirty-eight inches in

circumference, nor more than fifteen and one-half inches from top to bottom. Such limits

shall include all lacing and any leather band or facing attached to the outer edge of the mitt.

The space between the thumb section and the finger section of the mitt shall not exceed six

inches at the top of the mitt and four inches at the base of the thumb crotch. The web shall

measure not more than seven inches across the top or more than six inches from its top to

the base of the thumb crotch. The web may be either a lacing or lacing through leather

tunnels, or a center piece of leather which may be an extension of the palm, connected to the

mitt with lacing and constructed so that it will not exceed any of the above mentioned

measurements.

1.13 The first baseman may wear a leather glove or mitt not more than twelve inches

long from top to bottom and not more than eight inches wide across the palm, measured

from the base of the thumb crotch to the outer edge of the mitt. The space between the

thumb section and the finger section of the mitt shall not exceed four inches at the top of the

mitt and three and one-half inches at the base of the thumb crotch. The mitt shall be

constructed so that this space is permanently fixed and cannot be enlarged, extended,

widened, or deepened by the use of any materials or process whatever. The web of the mitt

shall measure not more than five inches from its top to the base of the thumb crotch. The

web may be either a lacing, lacing through leather tunnels, or a center piece of leather which

may be an extension of the palm connected to the mitt with lacing and constructed so that it

will not exceed the above mentioned measurements. The webbing shall not be constructed

of wound or wrapped lacing or deepened to make a net type of trap. The glove may be of

any weight.

1.14 Each fielder, other than the first baseman or catcher, may use or wear a leather

glove. The measurements covering size of glove shall be made by measuring front side or

ball receiving side of glove. The tool or measuring tape shall be placed to contact the

surface or feature of item being measured and follow all contours in the process. The glove

shall not measure more than 12" from the tip of any one of the 4 fingers, through the ball

pocket to the bottom edge or heel of glove. The glove shall not measure more than 7¾"

wide, measured from the inside seam at base of first finger, along base of other fingers, to

the outside edge of little finger edge of glove. The space or area between the thumb and

first finger, called crotch, may be filled with leather webbing or back stop. The webbing

may be constructed of two plies of standard leather to close the crotch area entirely, or it

Rule 1.14 to 1.16

9

may be constructed of a series of tunnels made of leather, or a series of panels of leather, or

of lacing leather thongs. The webbing may not be constructed of wound or wrapped lacing

to make a net type of trap. When webbing is made to cover entire crotch area, the webbing

can be constructed so as to be flexible. When constructed of a series of sections, they must

be joined together. These sections may not be so constructed to allow depression to be

developed by curvatures in the section sides. The webbing shall be made to control the size

of the crotch opening. The crotch opening shall measure not more than 4½" at the top, not

more than 5¾" deep, and shall be 3½" wide at its bottom. The opening of crotch shall not

be more than 4½" at any point below its top. The webbing shall be secured at each side, and

at top and bottom of crotch. The attachment is to be made with leather lacing, these

connections to be secured. If they stretch or become loose, they shall be adjusted to their

proper condition. The glove can be of any weight. See Diagram No. 4.

1.15

(a) The pitcher’s glove may not, exclusive of piping, be white, gray, nor, in the

judgment of an umpire, distracting in any manner.

(B) No pitcher shall attach to his glove any foreign material of a color different from the

glove.

© The umpire-in-chief shall cause a glove that violates Rules 1.15(a) or 1.15(B) to be

removed from the game, either on his own initiative, at the recommendation of

another umpire or upon complaint of the opposing manager that the umpire-in-chief

agrees has merit.

[UmpJM]

Rich,

Rich,

One more time.

In the OP, it was specifically an F3's glove.

I said that if it meant the constraints of 1.14, it was legal.

It is. Even in Little League.

Again, what "unintended advantage" do you think would be gained by an F1 using a "mitt" rather than a "glove" - al long as it mitt the dimensional and web construction constraints. I can only presume by your lack of response that you can't think of any either.

JM

[noumpere]

"Instructor comments:

In Baseball, only the first baseman may wear a first baseman’s mitt. "

Well that statement is clearly not true (unless by the word "Baseball" you mean "Little League") Even Rich has to admit that "Baseball" and "Little League" are not synonymous

Rich was quoting from the LL RIM so it clearly applies to the OP. And my guess is that the emphasis on baseball was to distinguish it from sfotball which LL also has and might be covered in the RIM as well.

So, if LL has the restriction (and it seems they do) and if the OP was incorrect in calling it a glove and not a mitt then I agree it shouldnt of been allowed in the game. I also agree with whoever said that its 10U so I wonder a bit about the coach who brought it up.

[UmpJM]

BTW,

Is this a mitt or a glove - it strikes me as having properties of both?

JM

[BretMan]

A "glove" has individual, independant finger stalls.

A "mitt" does not (think "mitten").

Some of you guys are really trying to overthink this. The rules about gloves and mitts have been around longer than any of us have. As with many other baseball rules and customs, change is at a glacial pace. Those rules were written when gloves were little more than leather work gloves, with no lacing between the fingers and maybe a strand or two of lace for the web. Mitts in those days were flat clumsy chunks of leather that resembled an oven mitt.

Back then, somebody decided that gloves and mitts were two different things, that their size and shape should be standardized and that certain positions could use only certain types...and that's just pretty much the way it's stayed for the past hundred years (though they did rewrite some of the definitions around 1950, as glove and mitt designs evolved).

Admittedly, some of these rules don't seem to make sense. But they are what they are and that's what they are!

Some baseball or softball organizations have decided that wearing a mitt or glove at a certain position doesn't offer any sort of advantage and have eliminated the distinction. Other's have decided that limiting certain types of gloves or mitts to certain positions can be a detriment to participation, by requiring a kid to obtain a specialized piece of equipment.

Little League and professional baseball are not organizations who have made these exceptions!