Balk stop / step out of box....

[UmpTTS43]

Batter is taking too long receiving signs ...ball is LIVE and he's NOT requested 'time', so , ...I'm letting it go, of course ....well the pitcher is taking signs, then looks towards second before he pitches ....

Batter is NOT in the box yet, ...F1 looks to home as his windup starts and then stops .......

Concerning the original OP. This is only a "no pitch" with no runners on. This is a balk with runners.

If there are runners and this happens in a game in which I am officiating, it will be called a balk. There will be no need to do any further preventative umpiring because someone will have gotten the message. It is not my job to coach either the pitcher or the batter. As long as the batter is getting signs from the coach, I cannot warn the batter. There is no rule limiting the length of signs. I may not like it, but there is nothing I can do by rule. I can have the batter keep one foot in the box in some rule sets. I am not going to kill the ball just because someone is doing something wrong and I'm going to try and stop it. If time is asked for and warranted, I will grant it. If the ball was live and this happened, then you retroactively call nothing, you are refusing to penalize the defense for their mistake, thereby penalizing the offense. No need to over analyze this.

[mazzamouth]

Concerning the original OP. This is only a "no pitch" with no runners on. This is a balk with runners.

If there are runners and this happens in a game in which I am officiating, it will be called a balk. There will be no need to do any further preventative umpiring because someone will have gotten the message. It is not my job to coach either the pitcher or the batter. As long as the batter is getting signs from the coach, I cannot warn the batter. There is no rule limiting the length of signs. I may not like it, but there is nothing I can do by rule. I can have the batter keep one foot in the box in some rule sets. I am not going to kill the ball just because someone is doing something wrong and I'm going to try and stop it. If time is asked for and warranted, I will grant it. If the ball was live and this happened, then you retroactively call nothing, you are refusing to penalize the defense for their mistake, thereby penalizing the offense. No need to over analyze this.

Im confused.. you will let the pitcher pitch the ball even if the batter is not in the box?....

your saying you would balk him, if he stopped.. but why are you gonna let the pitcher pitch if the batter is not in the box? We tell the batter to keep a foot in ( or he can't leave the box) and if the batter is getting signs while the pitcher is waiting for him to get ready, are you still gonna let the pitcher pitch even thought the batter is getting signs? kinda seems like the same thing.

[UmpTTS43]

Im confused.. you will let the pitcher pitch the ball even if the batter is not in the box?....

your saying you would balk him, if he stopped.. but why are you gonna let the pitcher pitch if the batter is not in the box? We tell the batter to keep a foot in ( or he can't leave the box) and if the batter is getting signs while the pitcher is waiting for him to get ready, are you still gonna let the pitcher pitch even thought the batter is getting signs? kinda seems like the same thing.

If he pitches, it's still a balk with runners on. I'm not there to tell players how to do their job. I am there to make calls and enforce penalties when they do their job incorrectly.

[Rich Ives]

If he pitches, it's still a balk with runners on. I'm not there to tell players how to do their job. I am there to make calls and enforce penalties when they do their job incorrectly.

What is a pitch?

If the criteria is not met how can it be a pitch?

If it's not a pitch how can there be a balk for stopping the delivery of a pitch?

[mstaylor]

What we are responding to is the batter getting his signs,the pitcher looking at second, then turning and starting to pitch. If he pitches it is a quick pitch, if he stops it is a balk for not completing his pitch.

If you hold your hand up to stop this then time is called and is nothing. If you don't have your hand up see previous paragraph.

If the batter isn't in the box you need to decide is it reasonable or is he taking too long. If it is too long is it habitual or an isolated incident. If habitual, address it with the batter and/or the coach.

Whether you have your hand up or not there are times that the pitcher just won't pick up the batter until too late. At that point you have to officiate what happens. Yes, you shoould stop it if possible but sometimes you just can't.

[Rich Ives]

Food for thought.

2.00 A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher.

So - if there is no batter there, is it a pitch?

[mazzamouth]

Food for thought.

2.00 A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher.

So - if there is no batter there, is it a pitch?

I agree with Rich here... you cant throw to a batter who isnt in the box ( unless the umpire is directing him, and in this OP that is not the case)

To me this is nothing..I don't think the batter is trying to pull a fast one, just maybe not paying attention..Im calling a no pitch.. and who is gonna argue?

[UmpTTS43]

I agree with Rich here... you cant throw to a batter who isnt in the box ( unless the umpire is directing him, and in this OP that is not the case)

To me this is nothing..I don't think the batter is trying to pull a fast one, just maybe not paying attention..Im calling a no pitch.. and who is gonna argue?

The batter is the one currently at bat. Just because the batter is not in the box does not mean that he is not "the batter". "The batter" may be taking signs, he is still "the batter". Balk it and proceed.

It is better to enforce the rules than to expect a coach to not know the rule and let the infraction slide. In the event a coach is knowledgeable and protests, you have nothing to stand on. Enforce the rules and don't bring what you may think the intention is. Umpire, don't coach.

[mstaylor]

So Rich, is it your contention that if you have a batter standing there with a foot in and a foot out getting signs you aren't going to balk the pitcher if he pitches, runneres or not. With runners if he starts but stops because the batter isn't set, you won't balk him? This is simply wrong if I am reading you correctly. I'm pretty sure Mazz is saying the same thing.

In younger ball, I may agree to not balking him but 13 and above, that's a balk.

[mazzamouth]

So Rich, is it your contention that if you have a batter standing there with a foot in and a foot out getting signs you aren't going to balk the pitcher if he pitches, runneres or not. With runners if he starts but stops because the batter isn't set, you won't balk him? This is simply wrong if I am reading you correctly. I'm pretty sure Mazz is saying the same thing.

In younger ball, I may agree to not balking him but 13 and above, that's a balk.

Look, I know t college when a guy has a 1 foot out of the box taking a signs, I will if I feel the pitcher is gonna pitch put my hand up, I will protect the hitter... But I believe form the games I have called, the catcher isn't even giving the signs to the pitcher till the batter is in the box anyways...LOL

I still will not balk this UMPTTS43...LOL I will tell the coach what I need to..like i said earlier, your grabbing the dirty end of the stick.

[Rich Ives]

So Rich, is it your contention that if you have a batter standing there with a foot in and a foot out getting signs you aren't going to balk the pitcher if he pitches, runneres or not. With runners if he starts but stops because the batter isn't set, you won't balk him? This is simply wrong if I am reading you correctly. I'm pretty sure Mazz is saying the same thing.

In younger ball, I may agree to not balking him but 13 and above, that's a balk.

If a pitch is a ball delivered to the batter, and yet there's no batter there, how can the throw be a pitch?

[PeteBooth]

The batter is the one currently at bat. Just because the batter is not in the box does not mean that he is not "the batter". "The batter" may be taking signs, he is still "the batter". Balk it and proceed.

It is better to enforce the rules than to expect a coach to not know the rule and let the infraction slide. In the event a coach is knowledgeable and protests, you have nothing to stand on. Enforce the rules and don't bring what you may think the intention is. Umpire, don't coach.

To me this statement is the "all important one" and IMO, is getting "lost in the translation"

Batter is taking too long receiving signs ...

We don't know from the above statement whether B1 had one foot in the box while getting his signs. Since the poster said "takes way too long" one can assume that the batter had both feet out of the box.

Most of the leagues I umpire in have a batter's box rule so if you want to "enforce the rules" then the FIRST time it happens you call TIME and tell B1 to "get back in there" etc. If the action is repeated then start calling strikes.

This OP all boils down to the batter taking too long to get into the box and I cannot see calling a balk here.

The 2 calls are

1. Award an automatic strike

2. "A do-over"

If you call a balk then the coach will instruct his batters to purposely delay the game to get "the balk call"

Pete Booth

[mstaylor]

OK, let me recollect my thoughts on the thread.

The OP does talk about the batter taking way too long. This an issue for the umpire to fix, pronto. If this was the first time it happened then there is nothing to fix. Repetition needs to be taken care of.

The next issue was the pitcher was getting his signs, looking at second, then turning and trying to pitch. He stops because the batter isn't in the box. If you have your hand up then it nothing because you have called time. If he picks to second you are going to nullify the out for the same reason, correct? If you don't have your hand up then the ball is live and if he stops it is a balk, period. If there is disagreement then let me know. If he pitches it is a quick pitch, how can it be anything else? If you have big adversion to calling that balk then you better come out big and loud and call time before he releases the ball.

Pete mentioned the batter purposely delaying to get a balk call. First, if they are doing it repeatedly then be an umpire and fix the problem. Warn the batter, warn the coach or start calling directed strikes, whatever it takes but fix it. None the less, the pitcher still has the responsibility to know the batter is in the box. If he isn't doing that then fix it. Call balks, illegal pitches or warn him to make sure the guy is in the box. Why would we protect either the offense or the defense if they are screwing up?

All these things are game management problems not rules problems. Now I had the feeling from the OP that it was young kids and certainly do everything to help them through the game but don't just ignore it, teach them what they doing wrong without penalties. Whether you talk to the kids or the coaches, fix it. Ignoring the problem just ingrains it then you have to fix it later.

[PeteBooth]

If you don't have your hand up then the ball is live and if he stops it is a balk, period. If there is disagreement then let me know.

Michael if F1 balks while going to second base (which is almost impossible) then by all means call the balk, HOWEVER, if F1 STOPS because there is NO batter to pitch to (batter is NOT in the box) then please tell me why you are calling a balk?

F1 is in a NO WIN scenario. If he STOPS you will balk him and if he pitches (with no batter) you will call a quick pitch. If I was the OC and seen you call a balk or a quick pitch I would start telling my batter's to take their "sweet time" while getting signs to "draw the call"

The batter is the one causing all of this by taking too long to get into the box and the REAL answer after you give a warning is to start calling strikes.

As mentioned above if he stops you balk him and if he continues you call a quick pitch.

To me that is absurd.

Pete Booth

[mstaylor]

Why absurd? The pitcher screwed up by not looking before he started his motion so why does he get a pass? I completely agree that in the OP the batter should have already been talked to about speeding it up. I am talking more about the occasional slow batter not the habitual offender. And yes, if he starts to pitch with the batter not there, partially there or not set will get balked no matter which option he takes.

The coach telling his batter to take his time is going to dealt with by me. I will not allow him to delay unnecessarily but I will certainly allow a batter to get his signs and if takes a little longer to break up a pitcher's timing then I am good with that. Believe me a slow batter drives me nuts but he has to be allowed to do his job. On the other hand, a pitcher that won't look before he pitches is dangerous and I won't allow that either. Look at the definition of a QP.

[mazzamouth]

Why absurd? The pitcher screwed up by not looking before he started his motion so why does he get a pass? I completely agree that in the OP the batter should have already been talked to about speeding it up. I am talking more about the occasional slow batter not the habitual offender. And yes, if he starts to pitch with the batter not there, partially there or not set will get balked no matter which option he takes.

The coach telling his batter to take his time is going to dealt with by me. I will not allow him to delay unnecessarily but I will certainly allow a batter to get his signs and if takes a little longer to break up a pitcher's timing then I am good with that. Believe me a slow batter drives me nuts but he has to be allowed to do his job. On the other hand, a pitcher that won't look before he pitches is dangerous and I won't allow that either. Look at the definition of a QP.

I just want to know where you are getting your ruling from on the Balk..

If the batter is not in you can't have a pitch right?.. so how can you have a Balk?

[mstaylor]

If the ball is live and the pitcher starts to pitch and stops, what else could it be?

[spiritump]

If the ball is live and the pitcher starts to pitch and stops, what else could it be?

if the pitcher stops because the batter calls time or steps out the pitcher stops because of the action of the batter--it is not a balk--the umpire does not have call time --just the action of the batter that causes the pitcher to stop his pitch--this is not a balk.

[UmpTTS43]

I just want to know where you are getting your ruling from on the Balk..

If the batter is not in you can't have a pitch right?.. so how can you have a Balk?

A pitch is a ball delivered to a batter. Just because a batter is not in the box does not mean that there is no batter. If the batter is not ready to receive the pitch, it is a quick pitch. With runners on, a quick pitch is a balk.

If the ball is live, I don't understand why some of you refuse to penalize the offender. Usually I hear the mantra "screw the team that screwed up." Although I don't subscribe to that theory, this is a case where you have to enforce the penalty if there is a live ball. If you don't you are penalizing the offense.

If you decide to call time and sell it fine. You just can't call a do over if the ball is live. That's just MSU.

[mazzamouth]

Ok... Im done here as we are not gonna agree...LOL.. I dont get in efight.. LOL as I love to argue rules like this one..LOL

[mstaylor]

if the pitcher stops because the batter calls time or steps out the pitcher stops because of the action of the batter--it is not a balk--the umpire does not have call time --just the action of the batter that causes the pitcher to stop his pitch--this is not a balk.

If the batter is in the box and steps out or does something that causes a balk, it is absolutely a do over. If he never got in or has one foot in then I am balking the pitcher. The batter did nothing wrong so I am not going to penalize him.

As I have said several times in this thread, if he is habitually is delaying then certainly I am going to take care of that. I am not going to allow the offense to delay in an attemmpt to draw a balk. BUT, if he happens to be getting his signs and the pitcher pitches then I am banging the pitcher.

[Rich Ives]

If the ball is live, I don't understand why some of you refuse to penalize the offender.

Why do you assume the pitcher is the offender - the batter's out of the box isn't he?

The batter's legal position is with BOTH feet in the box.

Isn't he "offending"?

What's so hard about just calling time when you see the pitcher starting?

Everyone in the park (except the pitcher) knows the batter's not there. Do you really think you're better off calling the balk?

[mazzamouth]

Everyone in the park (except the pitcher) knows the batter's not there. Do you really think you're better off calling the balk?

I think calling time and having a do over is the best thing, and maybe the safest, no one will argue, cause your not punishing either team. and you can explain to either coach and tell him what you have.

[PeteBooth]

A pitch is a ball delivered to a batter. Just because a batter is not in the box does not mean that there is no batter. If the batter is not ready to receive the pitch, it is a quick pitch. With runners on, a quick pitch is a balk.

If the ball is live, I don't understand why some of you refuse to penalize the offender.

The BATTER is the offender. He is taking his "sweet time" in getting to the plate.

You have NO batter so how can you have a pitch?

You are the one refusing to look at the facts as presented in the OP.

We are not talking about a batter having one foot in the box and getting his signs and F1 NOT giving the batter ample time to do this. If that's the case then by all means balk F1 etc., HOWEVER,

that is NOT what's happening in this OP.

The batter is the OFFENDER here and IMO, you call TIME tell B1 what the deal is and continue. If he repeats the delay tactic and your league has a batter's box rule then start calling strikes.

To call a balk or QP in THIS particlar OP is absurd.

Based upon your answer you are CONDONING the actions of the batter.

Pete Booth

[mstaylor]

Pete:

We agree that in the OP the batter was the offender and if you look back to the beginning of the thread I said the action taken was correct. I also said that ignoring the batter's delay tactics should be dealt with.

Now, the thread progressed to discuss the batter not being in to start or having one foot in taking signs and it is an isolated case, this is a balk. The pitcher has to be aware of what is going on and if he isn't then he gets balked.

This is really a game managment issue. If the offense is screwing around, speed them up. If the pitcher isn't paying attention, open his eyes. I think you and I are on the same page but others may not.