Is this a quick pitch?

[buddywilshire]

I'm BU. Count is 0-1. Pitcher walks off the mound gets the ball from the catcher. Batter steps out of box. Pitcher gets sets. As soon as batter steps in box, pitcher starts to come home with the ball. I called time and said "Pitcher you have to give him a chance to get reasonablely ready to bat." Pitcher says "Oh, no problem." No other issues. Between innings I run into check on the PU, before the game he was saying he had the flu, just wanted to make sure he was ok. He says he is fine then ask why I called time. Told him that the batter has to have time to get set. He tells me "No he doesn't. He only gets that when he first comes to bat." I said "Not if the pitcher allows him too. If the pitcher gets the ball and gets set, the pitcher is ok, but if the pitcher comes off the mound(like he did) that he has to let him get set." He starts yelling at me(normally I would have not taken his crap, but I know he felt bad and I was being nice) "No they can't just walk out of the box and walk around without calling time!" I said "But the pitcher can walk off the mound, and talk to his catcher and just get the ball and go? I don't think that is right. That doesn't make any sense." He yells again "Don't argue with me!" I said "Ok John, but I still think you are wrong" and walked down the line to A.

After the game, we had a double header, I looked it up, and under batter, I belive it was 6 of OBR, pretty much word for word what I said. I can see his point, basically the batter can't just walk around if the pitcher is ready, but because the pitcher is busy not being ready, the batter can also not be ready. I told John to look at it, and he told me that he doesn't want to argue but I was wrong.

So which is it?

[noumpere]

I think you were both wrong, but your partner was wronger. (that's a joke)

[jim knight]

Wow... well from what I see from your post, you were wrong to bring it up during the game.... but right on the rest.

[buddywilshire]

I think you were both wrong, but your partner was wronger. (that's a joke)

That is how I felt during the game. Maybe mine was more of an unwritten rule, but after reading the OBR, I really think I was right.

[buddywilshire]

Wow... well from what I see from your post, you were wrong to bring it up during the game.... but right on the rest.

Huh? I made a call during a game and he was just wondering what it was, then he argueed with me, how did I bring anything up?

[Rich Ives]

2.00 A QUICK RETURN pitch is one made with obvious intent to catch a batter off balance. It is an illegal pitch.

Rule 8.05(e) Comment: A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter’s box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted.

See anywhere that it only applies when the batter first enters the box?

Rule 6 specifies how and when a batter can be penalized for not being in the batter's box. SEPARATE ISSUE.

[jim knight]

Huh? I made a call during a game and he was just wondering what it was, then he argueed with me, how did I bring anything up?

I would have just told him "I had time because some players were not ready"... good reason to not talk to partner between innings / just go to your spot and watch. I do not think we should be talking during games... especially after any sistuation. Good talk for a post game.

[Mr Umpire]

I would have just told him "I had time because some players were not ready"... good reason to not talk to partner between innings / just go to your spot and watch. I do not think we should be talking during games... especially after any sistuation. Good talk for a post game.

I have never been a big fan of this philosophy. That's just me.

However, for the OP, to me, the PU calls "Time" in this situation. HP is his area. He calls it and takes any fallout from it. Maybe he was going to call a balk and to do that in OBR, the pitch is still allowed to be done. Maybe that was what he was going to call which is why I allow the PU to call that balk or not.

Though you were right in how it should be handled if preventable. I think it was wrong of how it was handled. Just my opinion is all on this.

[buddywilshire]

I have never been a big fan of this philosophy. That's just me.

However, for the OP, to me, the PU calls "Time" in this situation. HP is his area. He calls it and takes any fallout from it. Maybe he was going to call a balk and to do that in OBR, the pitch is still allowed to be done. Maybe that was what he was going to call which is why I allow the PU to call that balk or not.

Though you were right in how it should be handled if preventable. I think it was wrong of how it was handled. Just my opinion is all on this.

I got to disagree with you. I saw someone doing something wrong. I was preventing an issue. Just because it is in his area that is no reason not to call it. I can see your point, but I think "In his area so you call it" is a little lazy.

It was handled wrong sure. After he first raised his voice I should have walked away, but I didn't. Then again I was really shocked at how he was acting. I've had disagreements before with guys but never has someone gotten mad. Usually it is a "i saw it this way" "well I had it this way" "Ok" and we move on, but he just got mad so fast. I was shocked. I couldn't believe how mad he got. Was he loud enough for teams in the dugout to hear? No, but the catcher heard him. It was shocking. I will chalk it up to him being ill.

[Mr Umpire]

I got to disagree with you. I saw someone doing something wrong. I was preventing an issue. Just because it is in his area that is no reason not to call it. I can see your point, but I think "In his area so you call it" is a little lazy.

You see it as lazy but as you can see, you stepped on his toes and he let you know it.

Let's say he got the rule right. But, was going to call the balk instead of preventing it. Then what? It is within the rules to handle it that way.

He is the one who is to judge if the batter is ready or not. Not the BU. That is not his call. Are you going to call balls and strikes as well? They are his area but you clearly don't want to respect what is the PU's area to rule. Might as well do it by yourself then.

[buddywilshire]

You see it as lazy but as you can see, you stepped on his toes and he let you know it.

Let's say he got the rule right. But, was going to call the balk instead of preventing it. Then what? It is within the rules to handle it that way.

He is the one who is to judge if the batter is ready or not. Not the BU. That is not his call. Are you going to call balls and strikes as well? They are his area but you clearly don't want to respect what is the PU's area to rule. Might as well do it by yourself then.

But clearly he wasn't waiting for a balk. How do I know? Because he told me the pitcher wasn't doing anything wrong. I can't pretend he got the rule right, because he didin't. If my aunt had a who know what she would be my uncle. He thought he was right, he wasn't.

Who says he is the one to judge if the batter is ready? I've never seen that. He doesn't "own that box". What if there is a dropped third strike and he doesn't see it? Am I just supposed to shrug and say "That is your area. I'm out here" No, we help each other out. What happens if there is a double in gap that he needs to get to third and there is an over throw and I have to go cover home. Do I jsut stay in my spot and say "That is your area to rule. You better hustle down there!" No.

[Mr Umpire]

You're failing to see there are prescribed mechanics and methods.

If there is an uncaught third strike, BU can give a signal to PU to help. But, he doesn't yell out the ball was dropped. Again, there are those prescribed mechanics.

If there is a double and the BR is the only one, then PU is not at 3B. And, if there is another runner, then PU takes him to 3B if there is a play and he covers HP if there is an overthrow and BU has the BR. BU does not cover HP except when he goes out on a ball from A position. Again, there are those prescribed mechanics.

You overstepped your bounds and seem to not want to admit that. How did you KNOW he didn't know the rule? You didn't until you talked to him. You are overstepping and jumping on his area to judge. He didn't make calls at 2B for you, did he? Why? B/c that is YOUR area to rule whether he thought you got it wrong or not.

Your area is limited to calling a balk on F1 if he commits one. It is the PU's area to judge if the batter is ready or not. That is his area and you stepped on it. Each umpire has his OWN responsibilities. How things are handled at the plate is the PU's job. It is in his title.

[buddywilshire]

I disagree. He doesn't make calls for me at second base, but this wasn't a call. I was preventing an injury or a problem, that is how I saw it.

You keep saying "How do you know he wasn't going to call a balk". You are right, I didn't know, but after he told me that the pitcher was doing nothing wrong, I knew I had the right call.

In this case the end justifies the means. I was right. You are arguing well what if this happened or what if this happened or what if this happened. The point is none of those things did or none of those things would have happened. How do I know this? Because of his response of "The pitcher did nothing wrong."

Also the issue wasn't if the batter was set. If PU had come to me and said "The batter was set, he could have thrown the pitch" but instead he came to me with, "The pitcher doesn't have to wait for him to be set." This means he didn't know the rule.

The point isn't if I knew he didn't know the rule, the point is I saw something that was wrong, that could have resulted in an injury or an arguement, and I prevented it.

[noumpere]

Lah me. Someone who asks for advice, doesn't like what he hears, and then decides to argue. Why even ask in the first place?

[buddywilshire]

What you are basically telling me is even though you got the call right, and even though your partner was wrong you should have let it be because you didn't know if he was wrong.

So in this spot. Tieing run on 3rdbase, two outs, batter is getting back in the box and F1 qucikly throws strike 3 game is over. After the game I say "Hey PU, I thought you were going to have a qucik pitch there. Didn't think the batter was set." PU responds "Oh he wasn't set but he doesn't have to be set." So the game was over on a call I know was wrong but according to you I should have let it go because the PU is in charge of the "Plate Area". Seems alittle backwards to me.

[Mr Umpire]

Again, you might as well call the games alone. The ends do not justify the means. Justifying why you did something wrong is never good. B/c, you will come across one who does know it. And, when you make his call, he is going to let you have it and it will be rightfully deserved. Continue to step on toes as you wish. But, you will learn a lesson when you step on the wrong ones.

I wonder. Would you do that to your assignor? And, I hope you will answer it the same as what you did even though it will be wrong. Let him see how you should be calling your games by yourself.

Even though the "what ifs" didn't happen, it is b/c you didn't allow them to happen. You stuck your nose where it doesn't belong.

[buddywilshire]

Lah me. Someone who asks for advice, doesn't like what he hears, and then decides to argue. Why even ask in the first place?

I didn't ask for advice. I asked who was right. If I was wrong I would have said ok. After being told I was right, I'm now getting someone telling me "Well you should have let it go because the PU is in charge of that area." I'm discussing that with him, not anything about the OP. But thanks for the comment.

[Mr Umpire]

What you are basically telling me is even though you got the call right, and even though your partner was wrong you should have let it be because you didn't know if he was wrong.

So in this spot. Tieing run on 3rdbase, two outs, batter is getting back in the box and F1 qucikly throws strike 3 game is over. After the game I say "Hey PU, I thought you were going to have a qucik pitch there. Didn't think the batter was set." PU responds "Oh he wasn't set but he doesn't have to be set." So the game was over on a call I know was wrong but according to you I should have let it go because the PU is in charge of the "Plate Area". Seems alittle backwards to me.

If the OC questions it and the PU comes to you for help, then you can tell him what you think the rule is. Until then, it is not your area to judge or rule on.

[buddywilshire]

Again, you might as well call the games alone. The ends do not justify the means. Justifying why you did something wrong is never good. B/c, you will come across one who does know it. And, when you make his call, he is going to let you have it and it will be rightfully deserved. Continue to step on toes as you wish. But, you will learn a lesson when you step on the wrong ones.

I wonder. Would you do that to your assignor? And, I hope you will answer it the same as what you did even though it will be wrong. Let him see how you should be calling your games by yourself.

Even though the "what ifs" didn't happen, it is b/c you didn't allow them to happen. You stuck your nose where it doesn't belong.

He is actually the comish of the league, so yeah I would have no problem doing it to the assignor. Why? Because the call was right. That is what I don't get. I got the call right, why is there any other issues?

Basically you are telling me to let things play out. I totally 100% agree. But there is no going back. I called time, let him reset and away we went.

[buddywilshire]

If the OC questions it and the PU comes to you for help, then you can tell him what you think the rule is. Until then, it is not your area to judge or rule on.

Ok but what if the OC questions it and then the PU goes "No he doesn't have to let him be set." Then what do I say? Do I just let it go because the PU didn't ask for my help? You are taking this to step Z when I handled it at step A.

[buddywilshire]

You seem really concerned about "stepping on other guys toes" and your assignor comment makes it sound like you wouldn't want to make the right call when working with your assignor because you wouldn't want to risk not getting anymore games(I know that isn't what you are saying, but it is coming off that way). I'm worried about getting the call right, not about offending anyone else. I understand 100% that you are saying that you don't want to offend other umps or jump on their calls because you don't want to be labeled a know it all or a jerk and not have guys work with you anymore. I get that. My point is that my main goal is to get the call and ruling correct. That is number one.

Also this isn't a call in question. It is a rule. Two different things. If there was a play at the plate and he called him out when I thought he was safe I would never come running in on that. In that case you are right, that is his area and he is closer and on top of the play. Calling time because the pitcher was already starting to bring the ball home before the batter was ready is not a call like that.

[Mr Umpire]

First of all, I don't care who I umpire with. If I am asked my opinion about a ruling or play, I will give it. Once it is brought to me, it becomes my job to inform him or help him make an informed decision if I know what the ruling should be.

Here is another example of not just jumping in when you feel like it.

Grounder hit to F6. He fields it and throws to 1B. F3 comes off the base before he catches the ball and doesn't come back until after BR touches 1B. BU is straightlined. Do you tell him right away to "get the call right" or do you let him make the call and see what happens? After all, the rule says F3 has to be touching 1B. It is a rule violation isn't it for the BU to call BR out?

The point is: ruling on this is the PU's responsibility. Each has their own area regardless if the other one KNOWS they are possibly missing something. Again, he may have felt the batter was set up. You don't know that until you talk to him. And, you shouldn't do that until after the inning or after the game for some people. But, it is up to the participants to say something if the umpire in question didn't. When they do and your partner comes to you, then give him your honest answer. If he won't have anything to do with it, then there is nothing left for you to do. He informs the HC and the HC can decide to protest if he thinks it is a rule violation. That is also his job to make that decision.

There is a "right" way and there is a "correct" way. If you go the "right" way, then each umpire makes the other umpire's calls at anytime they feel the other one missed the call. Judgment calls are subject to being overturned regardless of who is closer or may be in proper position. Who cares whose call it is as long as the alleged "right" call is made.

The "correct" way is to let each umpire manage his area of calls. Use proper mechanics and proper methods to call the game. If something occurs to be discussed, then do it. Judgment calls are not subject to anything. The calling umpire makes the call whether it is the "right" one or not. No one overturns calls or rules on something which is not their place to rule on.

Take your pick of which you would prefer. It is my experience that games go smoother for umpires and participants if things are done the "correct" way. It isn't about "stepping on toes". It is about proper umpiring.

[buddywilshire]

First of all, I don't care who I umpire with. If I am asked my opinion about a ruling or play, I will give it. Once it is brought to me, it becomes my job to inform him or help him make an informed decision if I know what the ruling should be.

Here is another example of not just jumping in when you feel like it.

Grounder hit to F6. He fields it and throws to 1B. F3 comes off the base before he catches the ball and doesn't come back until after BR touches 1B. BU is straightlined. Do you tell him right away to "get the call right" or do you let him make the call and see what happens? After all, the rule says F3 has to be touching 1B. It is a rule violation isn't it for the BU to call BR out?

The point is: ruling on this is the PU's responsibility. Each has their own area regardless if the other one KNOWS they are possibly missing something. Again, he may have felt the batter was set up. You don't know that until you talk to him. And, you shouldn't do that until after the inning or after the game for some people. But, it is up to the participants to say something if the umpire in question didn't. When they do and your partner comes to you, then give him your honest answer. If he won't have anything to do with it, then there is nothing left for you to do. He informs the HC and the HC can decide to protest if he thinks it is a rule violation. That is also his job to make that decision.

There is a "right" way and there is a "correct" way. If you go the "right" way, then each umpire makes the other umpire's calls at anytime they feel the other one missed the call. Judgment calls are subject to being overturned regardless of who is closer or may be in proper position. Who cares whose call it is as long as the alleged "right" call is made.

The "correct" way is to let each umpire manage his area of calls. Use proper mechanics and proper methods to call the game. If something occurs to be discussed, then do it. Judgment calls are not subject to anything. The calling umpire makes the call whether it is the "right" one or not. No one overturns calls or rules on something which is not their place to rule on.

Take your pick of which you would prefer. It is my experience that games go smoother for umpires and participants if things are done the "correct" way. It isn't about "stepping on toes". It is about proper umpiring.

You are the one that brought up if I was working with the assignor, not me, so apparently you do care who you ump with.

Apples and oranges. Two different cases. In that case I would hope my BU would be able to understand he didn't see the play, if that is the case, and look to me before he makes a call.

I agree with your point but me calling time and telling the pitcher to reset doesn't change any of that. Again I stopped an issue at point A and didn't let it get to point B. and in this case it was good that I did because the PU didn't know the rule.

You are reading way to far into about the "Right way" and the "Correct way." I think that is kind of silly. The way I handled it was a nonissue. It only would have been the "right way" if the the PU said "I got that call, I know what he was doing and I would have caught it" It became the correct call when he said "he wasn't doing anything wrong."

Again you were the run that brought up stepping on toes, not me.

[noumpere]

I asked who was right. If I was wrong I would have said ok.

(Against my own advice I will respond):

Neither of you was right.

You were wrong.

[Dragon29]

buddy,

There's a much simpler way to say what MrUmpire has been trying to say.

The battery belongs to the PU. Period.

If/when he requests help from you (uncaught 3K, check-swing, etc...) give him what you've got - otherwise, leave it alone.

I think you would be hard-pressed to find even a single umpire on this site who thinks what you did was right.

Are there any rules against what you did? No.

Would it be generally acceptable? No.

If you disagree, that's your prerogative - go ahead. Just know that 99.999% of the other umpires in the world disagree with you.