A botched EJ situation - how to help partner

[mrumpiresir]

Except for one small detail: 99% of the time the umpire is going to be able to show the coach that he's the clueless one - and will demonstrate it to the fans by not changing the call.

I've written several times on various boards about how we educate the coaches and fans. It works. Try it.

There are too many participants in the boards that gloat over how dumb the coaches and fans are, but seem unwilling to do any educational things to improve the situation. How many times have you seen the "Go straight to your car and get out of Dodge" advice?

I don't think people on this board gloat about how dumb coaches and fans are. It is generally accepted that fans are simply ignorant of the rules and tend to see close plays the way they want to see them, that is, we got it wrong because the call went against their team.

"Go straight to your car and get out of Dodge" is the only sensible thing to do after a game. Nothing good can come from hanging around after a game to discuss rules with parents who learned them from morons such as Tim He-who-shall-not-be-named.

I definately don't want to hang around and give a rules clinic to fans who think we did a poor job because their team lost.

Fan education is something coaches need to do, although if I were asked to conduct a meeting with fans for that purpose I would certainly be willing to do it.

[Mr Umpire]

Sorry to add fuel to the fire, but if it is done in an appropriate manner, I will allow the the coach to bring the rule book out onto the field. The times where this has been done are few and far between. The only incident where this comes to mind was either between games or innings and a coach showed me a rule for a play where the PU made the call, not me. This is especially true in tournaments, where the umpires are not always given the house rules. Maybe house rules are a different animal from the rulebook, but sometimes I will ask to see them if a coach claims something was in the tournament rules (i.e. bat size limitations, mandatory slide rules at home, etc.).

I used to carry my rulebook on the field (in my pocket of course). I did quit doing that. I figured it was the coach's responsibility to bring me one, not ask to use mine.

House rules is one thing. They usually don't represent a rule book and is clear.

The rule book is different. Also, sitting there to look at something which your partner called shouldn't have been done. IMO, you should have pointed him to the PU and let the PU decide what to do about the call, whether it be show him or tell him to find it on his own.

[Mr Umpire]

League management lesson:

Yes it is a concern. And it's a real-time concern for any coach with a clue. And for most others involved.

For the manager, it's because pitching regulations (innings, pitches, whatever) revolve around the days of rest required. And the schedule creates the days of rest. So having to play non-essential innings on an additional date messes up the pitching plan/rotation. Or player availability.

For the parents it may mean changing family plans - of having to have Billy miss the make up game. And the manager already knows this might happen.

And the park sechduler now has to fit in an additional game.

And the UIC has to schedule another umpire (and maybe pay him).

But then what do I know, I've only been doing it since 1974. Not enough experience I guess.

Must be nice to work in the small community. The grand scheme is much smaller. And, not of concern to any coach with a clue b/c he is doing his job to represent his team properly with a protest if one is needed. Actually, it is clear enough that I have seen leagues actually have it written in their rules.

And, since I know you want proof, here it is. It is clearly stated in their rules on page 7. Must be a reason. There is a protest process in place and NO coach will bring the rulebook out. I wonder what the result is if he does it.

http://495baberuth.org/2011/2011_docs/495_League_Rules_2011.pdf

And, though this is softball, same rule on page 8 in the rules section.

http://slam-league.com/

And, here is another site claiming the same thing.

http://tricountyumpiregroup.com/locker.html

They took an unwritten rule and made it written.

And, I have one about a college umpire doing the same thing. Page 153

http://books.google.com/books?id=mdxkOx1Y1LsC&pg=PA15*3&dq=coach+tossed+showing+rule*book#v=onepage&q=rule&f=false

So many different examples of the same thing we are saying. Different generations but the same points.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Mr Umpire

[mstaylor]

Except for one small detail: 99% of the time the umpire is going to be able to show the coach that he's the clueless one - and will demonstrate it to the fans by not changing the call.

I've written several times on various boards about how we educate the coaches and fans. It works. Try it.

There are too many participants in the boards that gloat over how dumb the coaches and fans are, but seem unwilling to do any educational things to improve the situation. How many times have you seen the "Go straight to your car and get out of Dodge" advice?

Rich, I am the last one to be lectured on not helping coaches. I have 35 yrs in LL baseball, countless hrs in clinics for umpires and coaches. I have covered several states teaching clinics for LL coaches. I have offered help as far away as Arizonia. I have attended practices to watch pitchers to help them learn why their pick-off moves are legal or illegal. I spend hrs a day on various boards helping to teach proper rules interps and mechanics, some of the boards geared to coaches and players.

What I will not do is allow a coach to come out waving a rulebook. I will explain rules to coaches and/or players, I won't allow either show me or any other umpire up. I understand your history in LL but the fact remains you are a coach first, umpire second, I am the opposite.

[mstaylor]

House rules is one thing. They usually don't represent a rule book and is clear.

The rule book is different. Also, sitting there to look at something which your partner called shouldn't have been done. IMO, you should have pointed him to the PU and let the PU decide what to do about the call, whether it be show him or tell him to find it on his own.

MrUmpire:

Local rules (may) be different, if I am unfamiliar with the house rules I may ask to see them, the manager still isn't bringing them out on his own. He absolutely not showing me anything or discussing with me a play that my partner made. If he comes to me, I'm sending him to my partner.

[Mr Umpire]

MrUmpire:

Local rules (may) be different, if I am unfamiliar with the house rules I may ask to see them, the manager still isn't bringing them out on his own. He absolutely not showing me anything or discussing with me a play that my partner made. If he comes to me, I'm sending him to my partner.

Completely agree and should have put that in my statement. I will ask to see them. He is not bringing them on his own.

[mstaylor]

As far as going straight to the car, that is what we are taught to do. Nothing good is going to come from trying to have a discussion with an irate coach or parent right after the game. I have spent hrs standing at ballfields explaining the hows and whys of baseball.

[Mr Umpire]

As far as going straight to the car, that is what we are taught to do. Nothing good is going to come from trying to have a discussion with an irate coach or parent right after the game. I have spent hrs standing at ballfields explaining the hows and whys of baseball.

Again, I agree. If there is a situation that occurred during a game which may be a potential problem, that is why the umpires should just leave. Let the coaches find their answer from a noninvolved party such as this forum. Then, any potential for heated issues is removed since no one has something to prove.

It is called management. Same way to handle something at work. Let an outside party (manager) handle things between 2 employees to prevent any issues. The umpires and coaches are employees of the game. A BoD or someone else (like this forum) is the manager who is responsible to handle the issue.

Coaches don't see it this way. It is a mindset of how things work. Too many times, I have heard how things got very heated after the game. Too many threads about that issue which could have been avoided if the umpire left and let the coaches and fans find their answers else where to prevent the problem.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[yawetag]

What I will not do is allow a coach to come out waving a rulebook. I will explain rules to coaches and/or players, I won't allow either show me or any other umpire up.

+1. In the local league I work, I have told coaches that I would gladly show him the rule after the game; all he had to do was meet me in the office. Of the several times I've done it, only one has shown up -- and I showed him the applicable rule.

[PeteBooth]

I do appreciate your input, but sometimes your "tone" sure can get tiring.

What "tone" are you referring to?

You asked for input. I gave it based upon my experiences.

I did not insult you, call you names etc. yet you say "your tone sure can get tiring"

No clinic that I have attended recommends hanging around ON THE FIELD after the game to discuss what just happened and that is what I conveyed to you in my response.

It's amazing on the internet these days when posters ask for input, receive it and then say they do not like the 'tone".

Perhaps it's time for Warren (who has done a real good job with this site) to add another section called: Small Diamond, Youth/Rec ball or something along those lines because that's where this type of OP belongs.

Pete Booth

[Mike Prince]

Fair enough Pete. You did answer my question, which I have already said I appreciate. I found your post to be somewhat condescending, which is the "tone" I referred to. My apologies as I read your reply (and quickly responded) on what was turning into a bad day for non-baseball reasons.

Not sure I agree with your last statement in your post though as the scenario in my OP could happen on any size field or age group.

[PeteBooth]

OK. To show a coach in the rule book something during a game is suppose to happen where? In the clubhouse? I think it would have to be on the field and is not going to happen to me.

Also, again, the park having to change schedule to accommodate coming back is not and should not be the umpire's concern when handling a game. If it is, then he has too much to do and should not be umpiring b/c his head is not in the right place: Handling the game at hand and not be concerned with anything outside of this game.

Mr Umpire:

IMO, here is the underlying theme

There is OFFICIATING and

Then there is LL / YOUTH ball Officiating

That's why IMO, it would be a good idea for Warren to add another section called Small Diamond or Youth / Rec ball because as you can see the answers vary DRASTICALLY.

The role of the umpire in LL and Youth ball for that matter is different and that IMO, is what Rich is conveying. As Rich said the umpire at the LL or youth level is considered part of the "family" and therefore takes on a different role.

Presently at least for me umpiring is a business. Umpiring at the Youth / LL level is NOT a business. I do NOT hang around, wait for the players to shake hands, discuss the game with my partner ON THE FIELD or anything of that nature which depending upon location seems to be the norm in LL or Youth ball.

I do not get involved with scheduling, field availability etc. I get a schedule, show up at the game site 30-45 minutes ahead of time. Meet my partner and have a Pre-game. We walk ON an OFF the field together. When the game is OVER the PU hands whatever baseballs he has left to the HC and we LEAVE. Anything that needs to be discussed will be done in the parking lot or over some "cold ones"

In a nutshell there is a difference in "approach" to LL / Youth officiating and Officiating in general and this post is evidence of that distinction.

Pete Booth

[yawetag]

We walk ON an OFF the field together.

Unless you made a controversial call and you leave your partner alone on the field to get signatures. :TD:

[PeteBooth]

Not sure I agree with your last statement in your post though as the scenario in my OP could happen on any size field or age group.

We all have our opinions BUT for the MOST part you will NOT see what happened in this OP on any size field or age group. You said 9U so it's understandable.

I am not saying you will not get a bad partner once in a while at the HS or college level BUT NOT what happened in this OP. If you were doing a HS Varsity, College, Legion et al calibur league and acted in the manner described in the OP it would most likely be your last at that level. All the assignor would have to see is 2 umpires having a post game ON THE FIELD of play and that would be it.

As stated for the most part your OP is typical of youth ball and that's why I said it would be a good idea to have a small diamond type section on this site.

Pete Booth

[Mike Prince]

We all have our opinions BUT for the MOST part you will NOT see what happened in this OP on any size field or age group. You said 9U so it's understandable.

I am not saying you will not get a bad partner once in a while at the HS or college level BUT NOT what happened in this OP. If you were doing a HS Varsity, College, Legion et al calibur league and acted in the manner described in the OP it would most likely be your last at that level. All the assignor would have to see is 2 umpires having a post game ON THE FIELD of play and that would be it.

As stated for the most part your OP is typical of youth ball and that's why I said it would be a good idea to have a small diamond type section on this site.

Pete Booth

Yes, I see your point. Thanks for taking the time to explain it - I agree.

Like I said my OP happened back several months ago. Fortunately (due in no small part to this forum and my own hard work) I have improved leaps and bounds and so has our association. Hopefully in the next year or so I will progress to a higher level of ball, at least that is my aspiration.

[Mr Umpire]

What "tone" are you referring to?

You asked for input. I gave it based upon my experiences.

I did not insult you, call you names etc. yet you say "your tone sure can get tiring"

Pete Booth

I wonder. Could it be the constant use of ALL CAPS when trying to show a point? We can read. We do not need ALL CAPS to read a post. The constant ALL CAPS does set a tone for the message. And, every single post has something in ALL CAPS as if arguing b/c no one is listening. It happens in the first post to the last post. And, can be rather annoying to have to read through to get through it.

Just giving an opinion on it. The ALL CAPS is not necessary.

[mstaylor]

As stated for the most part your OP is typical of youth ball and that's why I said it would be a good idea to have a small diamond type section on this site.

Pete Booth

Perhaps something like this? http://umpire-empire.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9

That would be the part I moderate. Just saying.:P

[PeteBooth]

Perhaps something like this? http://umpire-empire.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9

That would be the part I moderate. Just saying.

My bad Michael. That's exactly the place for this OP.

Pete Booth

[kylejt]

I'll disagree, because this sections is titled "Situations", and the question is pretty generic. The answers provided throughout the thread give a broad spectrum of answers, and usually included some sort of caveat towards the level of ball being played. That's great.

Is only when some get pissy about one level or another that trouble comes in.

I'd be willing to guess that 80% of the folks that read these things never post. Just lurkers. And most of them are rookies, guys and gals just starting out, and not wanting to get slapped down for their lack of knowledge. That's cool. I'd also be willing to bet they're starting on a small field.

[mstaylor]

I'll disagree, because this sections is titled "Situations", and the question is pretty generic. The answers provided throughout the thread give a broad spectrum of answers, and usually included some sort of caveat towards the level of ball being played. That's great.

Is only when some get pissy about one level or another that trouble comes in.

I'd be willing to guess that 80% of the folks that read these things never post. Just lurkers. And most of them are rookies, guys and gals just starting out, and not wanting to get slapped down for their lack of knowledge. That's cool. I'd also be willing to bet they're starting on a small field.

I agree, which is why I never say about what level is put in what section. The problem is many times some of threads would get missed by some good umpires because they don't care to follow the small ball section. If it is a LL specific or closed base specific question, certainly put it in the special section. If you wish it to be more generic then leave it in the more open section.

This has always been a very user friendly board and for the most part still is. What I am seeing,and I point to no one in particular, is an underlining sarcasm or smugness. Not open flaming but a condesending tone from some people.

[PeteBooth]

I'll disagree, because this sections is titled "Situations", and the question is pretty generic. The answers provided throughout the thread give a broad spectrum of answers, and usually included some sort of caveat towards the level of ball being played. That's great.

Is only when some get pissy about one level or another that trouble comes in.

We can all disagree and a poster can post in any section he/she wishes but from the OP

OK, 9U game,

IMO, the aforementioned is not generic. It's about a 9U game and as I mentioned and also Rich Ives eluded to there is a difference between the role of the umpire at one's local LL / youth ball league then in other types of ball where the official at a youth event is part of the "family."

I worked in a youth league where the UIC wanted the umpires to stay on the field and watch the players shake hands etc.

That's why IMO, this site does have different sections (which as I responded to Michael was my bad for not looking hard enough) and rightly so.

I do not think it is condensing etc. because there are some individuals who only want to officate youth / rec ball and IMO they would get a response more suited / tailored to their level of officiating.

Example: At umpire.org which I visit frequently they have separate sections for FED / NCAA baseball. Therefore, if I wanted to know something specific or seek input on NCAA or FED baseball it would make more sense to post at those separate sections. Same is true about the NFHS Forum which is specific to HS baseball. Yes in the generic Forums sometimes NCAA / FED rules come up but for the most part if something is specific to FED or NCAA you post there.

A poster can post anywhere they wish. My point was that this was a 9U game and if posted at the small diamond / youth/rec ball Forum IMO the answers would then be tailored for that level of ball.

If that seems condesending then my bad as that was not my intention. After all why were these separate sections created in the first place?

Most likely to accomodate questions dealing with "rug rat" level baseball and that's all I am saying.

Pete Booth

[midmoump]

While I realize that the OP is a 9U contest, here in MO we have a protest procedure (quoted below) that applies in HS contests. Consequently, it would be tough to toss a coach in a MSHSAA contest who brings the rulebook onto the field while complaining about an application of a rule.

PROCEDURES TO FOLLOW IN CASE A GAME IS PROTESTED

Game officials, like players and coaches, are subject to error. Thus, it is important that officials and coaches alike be aware of the proper procedures to be followed should a game be protested. Any protest shall be based on an error in applying a game rule. No protest shall be heard on the judgment of an official.

Board of Directors Policy On Site Protests of Athletic Contests

A. PROPER PROCEDURES FOR EVERY SPORT: Within the guidelines of each individual sport rule code, the head coach must request a review of an official's application of a rule through appropriate channels.

B. VERBAL PROTEST: If after the review is complete and the coach still believes there has been a misapplication of a rule by a contest official(s), the coach shall then file a formal, verbal protest with the game officials who will then notify the opposing coach immediately. A coach may not protest a decision of judgment.

C. TEN MINUTE PROCEDURE: After this notification, the head coach will then be allowed ten minutes to use his/her National Federation Sport Rules Book, National Federation Case Book, MSHSAA Rules Meeting Announcement and/or MSHSAA Sport Manual to locate and show the game official(s) the appropriate rule reference and misapplication of the game rule. If the head coach does not have his/her personal copies of the above mentioned materials at the game site or the specific rule reference(s) or case book play(s) cannot be located with in the maximum allowable ten minutes, the protest shall automatically be disallowed and the game shall continue from the point of interruption. If a rule reference(s), case book play(s), or other information from the MSHSAA Rules Meeting Announcement and/or MSHSAA Sport Manual is found that indicates a misapplication of a rule has occurred, the official's decision shall be corrected at that time before any further action occurs, and the game shall be resumed from the point of interruption after the correction. When appropriate, the game officials may assist the head coach in locating appropriate rule and case book references.

D. RESOLVED ON SITE: All Protests shall be resolved at the contest site before any further game action occurs.

E. PROTEST MUST BE TIMELY: Protests that are not filed in a timely manner by that sport rule code shall be automatically disallowed.

F. NO MSHSAA REVIEW: The MSHSAA Board of Directors and/or staff shall not review contest protests.

G. OFFICIAL’S RESPONSIBILITY: Official’s that fail to allow a protest of

a rules application or fail to make the appropriate changes when shown the rule are subject to the suspension of their officiating privileges.

[mstaylor]

First, that's one of the dumbest procedures I've seen recently and obviously written with little or no umpire imput.

Second, even in your state the coach should be tossed for bringing a rulebook out to argue. It clearly states that the coach doesn't get a rulebook until after a formal protest. There are two steps of discussion and review before he is allowed his shot.

[midmoump]

Despite the questionable intelligence of the rule, its the HS procedure we have in MO. Knowing this rule, I will not toss a HS coach that approaches me with a rulebook in hand. My first question is, "Coach, I see you have your rulebook. Are you lodging a protest?" If not, he needs to return the book to the dugout. I'm not going to toss a coach who intends to lodge a protest simply because he brought out his rulebook.

At the college level I would never allow a rulebook on the field, although I would warn the coach before an EJ, "Coach, you need to return that book to the dugout before you come out here." Fortunately, I have never had to warn or EJ a college coach for bringing out a rulebook.

[mstaylor]

Do as you wish but even with the rules you have a toss is perfectly justifiable. Your rules say he gets ten minutes after he has questioned the rule and it's been discussed. Then he gets his ten minutes to sink or swim.

When he starts with a rulebook then he should go home early. But you have to do as your assoc says. College, he's done, no discussion.