Runner steals during batting out of order

[cbiesecker]

No outs, R3, improper batter B5 has a 2-2 count, next pitch is a swinging strike, but the pitch gets past the catcher and the ball goes to the backstop. R3 scores, B5 makes it safely to first on the D3K. Defense appeals the BOO before the next pitch. B4 is out since he was the proper batter, but what do you do with R3? Does the run count or does R3 go back to third base since the steal happened on the same play when B5 made it to first?

I've checked my rulebook, but I'm confused as to what takes precedence under Rule 6.07(b.). Is it 6.07(b.)(2) or 6.07(b)Note?

6.07(b.)(2) - nullify any advance or score made because of a ball batted by the improper

batter or because of the improper batter’s advance to first base on a hit, an error, a

base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise.

6.07(b)Note - If a runner advances, while the improper batter is at bat, on a stolen base,

balk, wild pitch or passed ball, such advance is legal.

[mstaylor]

Send him back.

[sdix00]

Score the run.

Frum the WUM:

P227:

R2, no one out. Abel is due up, however, Baker comes to bat. With a 3-2 count,

Baker takes the next pitch for ball four. R2 steals third base on the pitch.

Before a pitch to the next batter, the defensive manager then brings the

situation to the plate umpire's attention.

Ruling:

The results of the play where Baker became a runner are nullified. The

proper batter, Abel, is called out for failing to bat in order, and Baker is the

next proper batter. Though R2 advanced to third on the play where Baker

became a runner, he did not advance as a result of Baker becoming a runner.

Therefore, the advance of R2 to third base stands.

[UmpJM]

DIX,

And what does the Wendelstedt manual say if, in the identical situation, R2 is thrown out at 3B instead of reaching it safely?

JM

[1dumbquestion]

DIX,

And what does the Wendelstedt manual say if, in the identical situation, R2 is thrown out at 3B instead of reaching it safely?

JM

I don't have my WUM in front of me but any outs made on a stealing runner during a BOO stand. 1

[sdix00]

DIX,

And what does the Wendelstedt manual say if, in the identical situation, R2 is thrown out at 3B instead of reaching it safely?

JM

OBR Only.

Safe or out, results of a runner stealing or otherwise advancing not as a result of the batter becoming a runner, play stands.

(In NFHS, all outs stand.)

P228: Rl, one out, 3-2 count. Abel is due up, however, Baker comes to bat. Rl steals

as the next pitch is thrown in the dirt. Baker attempts to check his swing and

the plate umpire rules that he did not offer at the pitch. The catcher's throw is

made to second base, and the tag is made just prior to Rl reaching the bag.

The defense then requests that the plate umpire go for help from his base

umpire on the check swing. The base umpire rules that the batter offered at

the pitch. The base umpire then turns to Rl at second base and declares him

out on the tag. The defense then brings to the attention of the plate umpire

Baker's batting out of order.

Ruling:

Baker completed hit time at bat when he was called out on strikes for the

check swing. Since Rl's advance was not a result of Baker becoming a

runner, his out stands. Abel will be called out for failing to bat in order, and

Baker will be the next proper batter In the next inning.

When it is determined that a batter did not bat in his proper position in the lineup, if the batting out of

order infraction is brought to the umpire's attention:

By the defensive team:

After the improper batter has completed his time at bat, but prior to the next pitch,

play, or attempted play to either team, the umpire shall declare the proper batter out

and return any runners who advanced or were called out as a result of the improper

batter becoming a runner. This includes runners that advanced as a result of the

improper batter becoming a runner, and then subsequently advanced on their own,

before a pitch, play, or attempted play is made to either team. If a runner advances

bases on their own, and where they did not previously advance as a result of the

improper batter becoming a runner, these plays shall stand. The next proper batter

will be the player whose name follows that of the proper batter who was called "out".

[grayhawk]

Now, say instead of the ball going to the backstop, B5 (in the original post) swings and misses and the ball pops out of F2's glove right at his feet and B5 runs to first. F2 throws to first and R3 beats the throw back home. Defense now appeals that B5 batted out of order. In this case, I would think R3 should be sent back since his advance was as a result of B5 becoming a runner (not a passed ball)?

[umped up]

OBR 6.07 E note: If a runner advances, while the improper batter is at bat, on a stolen base, balk,wild pitch or passed ball, such advance is legal.

[sdix00]

Now, say instead of the ball going to the backstop, B5 (in the original post) swings and misses and the ball pops out of F2's glove right at his feet and B5 runs to first. F2 throws to first and R3 beats the throw back home. Defense now appeals that B5 batted out of order. In this case, I would think R3 should be sent back since his advance was as a result of B5 becoming a runner (not a passed ball)?

I originally read the OP as R3 stealing on the pitch. However, re-reading it, it appears the OP says he "stole" on the PB.

Edit:

R3's advance would be a result of the Batter becoming a Runner only if the U3K resulted in a force situation. In this case, they are unrelated. Score R3.

[cbiesecker]

Now, say instead of the ball going to the backstop, B5 (in the original post) swings and misses and the ball pops out of F2's glove right at his feet and B5 runs to first. F2 throws to first and R3 beats the throw back home. Defense now appeals that B5 batted out of order. In this case, I would think R3 should be sent back since his advance was as a result of B5 becoming a runner (not a passed ball)?

I originally read the OP as R3 stealing on the pitch. However, re-reading it, it appears the OP says he "stole" on the PB.

I would agree with your ruling.

I didn't consider that R3 stealing on the pitch versus advancing on the passed ball would make a difference. In my OP, I was thinking R3 reached home on the passed ball and was not in fact stealing on the pitch. My use of the word "steal" in the OP was a poor choice.

In either case, I don't think that R3 reaching home is a result of B5's actions. Its a result of the passed ball. Therefore wouldn't the run score?

OBR Only.

Safe or out, results of a runner stealing or otherwise advancing not as a result of the batter becoming a runner, play stands.

(In NFHS, all outs stand.)

I'm still confused. :question1:

[sdix00]

(OBR Only)

This is what you must remember when deciding whether to allow the play to stand or to return the runner.

• All runners who have advanced as a result of the batter becoming a batter-runner (see below) will return to their bases at the time of the pitch.
  
  • However, such advance is legal if a runner advances while an improper batter is at bat on
    
    • a stolen base
      
    • a balk
      
    • a wild pitch
      
    • a passed ball
      

  [*]Any outs recorded prior to the batter becoming a batter-runner will also stand [6.07 (b ).

[*]A runner has advanced as a result of the batter becoming a batter-runner when:

• he is forced to advance as a result of:
  
  • a base on balls,
    
  • an uncaught third strike
    
  • a hits batsman,
    

  [*]or if he advanced as a result of

  • the batter hitting a pitch
    
  • batter being awarded bases.
    

(adapted FRUM the WUM)

[cbiesecker]

So based on the criteria that is cited from the WUM this is what I have:

R3 in my OP scores. It doesn't matter if he was stealing on the pitch or advanced because of the passed ball. In either case R3 wasn't forced to advance by the D3K or was he forced for any other reason, and B5 wasn't awarded bases or did he hit the pitch. Since he doesn't fit any of the criteria listed under "All runners who have advanced as a result of the batter becoming a batter-runner will return to their bases at the time of the pitch.", the run will count.

In grayhawk's example, B5 hits the ball. Therefore since R3 now does fall under the criteria listed in the WUM (batter hitting a pitch), R3 would be returned to third.

Thanks for helping me out.

BTW, I'm assuming that since you listed "OBR Only" the ruling would be different for FED. I got the example for the OP from a FED study guide and I was having problems with it. I thought the ruling would be the same for OBR and FED, but I'm guessing I got that one wrong too. LOL, you gotta love FED.

[sdix00]

Grayhawk's post does not say the Batter was HBP. It says Batter became a runner on a U3K. Since R3 is not forced by the BR, the advance of R3 is unrelated to the U3K.

R3's advance or out would stand.

[cbiesecker]

You are correct about grayhawk's post. I misread it and thought that the batter swings and pops up (not HBP). What he actually wrote was "swings and misses and the ball pops out of F2's glove". So in both examples, if R3 safely reaches home, and since he wasn't forced by the BR, the run scores. I think I got it now. Thanks.

[mstaylor]

I knew the exceptions when I said send him back. I also understand that the advance wasn't directly related to he batter becoming a runner but I believe there is a fine line I wasn't quite able to step over.

However, such advance is legal if a runner advances while an improper batter is at bat on

• a stolen base
  
• a balk
  
• a wild pitch
  
• a passed ball
  

I was hanging my hat on the fact that he is no longer a batter, so these exceptions are null and void.

But,

A

runner has advanced as a result of the batter becoming a batter-runner when:

• he is forced to advance as a result of:
  
  • a base on balls,
    
  • an uncaught third strike
    
  • a hits batsman
    

because of this part I have to admit that he wasn't forced.

Now my only other sticking point is actually two possible points. One is, the only reason he tried to score was a D3K not a straight steal. Second, it doesn't say if F2 tried to play on the R3 or the BR. If they played on the BR then I am absolutely sending him back. If he was straight stealing I can see letting him score. If he only advances because of the D3K and they play on the R3, I could be convinced to allow the score.

A pitch earlier and a WP, no problem. I can see the logic behind allowing the score but I have a ways to go before I agree completely.

[johnnyg08]

This was a test question either on FED or NCAA within the last two years (not this year) and the fact that the batter turned into a runner on the same play that R3 scores, upon successful appeal we have to send him back.

Earlier in the count (before batter can become a runner) we can count the run.