Runner behind infielders, hit by batted ball

[sdix00]

Bases loaded, none out and the infield is drawn in to the grass. B4 hits a line drive up the middle that nails

R2, who is standing on second base. No infielder had a chance to make a play.

Rulings:

OBR:

NCAA:

FED:

[grayhawk]

Bases loaded, none out and the infield is drawn in to the grass. B4 hits a line drive up the middle that nails

R2, who is standing on second base. No infielder had a chance to make a play.

Rulings:

OBR: R2 is out, BR is awarded first. Didn't go "through or by" (which is defined as within his reach) an infielder other than a pitcher.

NCAA: Not sure, but I think it's the same as

OBR.

FED: "That's nothing." The ball is in play. "Through or by" is not part of FED rules. If R2 was behind the infielders and no infielder had a chance to play on the ball, then it's ignored.

[JaxRolo]

Bases loaded, none out and the infield is drawn in to the grass. B4 hits a line drive up the middle that nails

R2, who is standing on second base. No infielder had a chance to make a play.

Rulings:

OBR: R2 is out, BR is awarded first. Didn't go "through or by" (which is defined as within his reach) an infielder other than a pitcher. He did say the infielder were in on the Grass so didn't it go "Through or by"?

NCAA: Not sure, but I think it's the same as

OBR.

FED: "That's nothing." The ball is in play. "Through or by" is not part of FED rules. If R2 was behind the infielders and no infielder had a chance to play on the ball, then it's ignored.

[UmpJM]

dix,

OBR - That's interference; the ball is dead, the R2 is out, the BR is awarded 1B, R1 is placed on 2B and R3 returns to 3B.

NCAA - Live ball, play the bounce. (NCAA 8-5k)

FED - Live ball, play the bounce.

Jax,

Under the official OBR interpretation, the ball has NOT passed "through or by" any infielder. From the MLBUM:

The interpretation to be made with regard to the phrase "a fair ball goes through, or by, an

infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him" (Official Baseball Rules 7.09(m) and

5.09(f)) is that this refers to a ball that passes through the infielder's legs, or by his immediate

vicinity, and strikes a runner directly behind the infielder.

JM

[grayhawk]

Thanks for placing the other runners UmpJM - forgot that the bases were loaded.

[JaxRolo]

dix,

OBR - That's interference; the ball is dead, the R2 is out, the BR is awarded 1B, R1 is placed on 2B and R3 returns to 3B.

NCAA - Live ball, play the bounce. (NCAA 8-5k)

FED - Live ball, play the bounce.

Jax,

Under the official OBR interpretation, the ball has NOT passed "through or by" any infielder. From the MLBUM:

The interpretation to be made with regard to the phrase "a fair ball goes through, or by, an

infielder, and touches a runner immediately back of him" (Official Baseball Rules 7.09(m) and

5.09(f)) is that this refers to a ball that passes through the infielder's legs, or by his immediate

vicinity, and strikes a runner directly behind the infielder.

JM

Thank you!

[cbiesecker]

Do the rulings change if the situation is nearly the same, but this time the runners are taking a lead off the bases? BTW, I love this type of thread as I typically learn a lot from them. I'm thinking that R2 is out in all rulings, R3 remains at 3B, R1 goes to 2B, and the BR gets 1B.

Bases loaded, none out and the infield is drawn in to the grass. B4 hits a line drive up the middle that nails R2, who is standing on just off second base. No infielder had a chance to make a play.

Rulings:

OBR:

NCAA:

FED:

[noumpere]

Do the rulings change if the situation is nearly the same, but this time the runners are taking a lead off the bases?

The location of the runner doesnt matter (well, unless its an infield fly, I guess). Its the location of the fielders that is important.

[cbiesecker]

Okay, so the thing that makes this different between the different rule sets, is the "through or by" interpretation in the OBR. In FED and college, the ball is considered to have gone "through or by" a fielder since they were playing up, that's why it remains a live ball and the runner isn't out when he gets hit by the batted ball. But in OBR its not "through or by", since it didn't pass within the immediate vicinity of a fielder, and the runner is out because he was hit by the batted ball. Is that correct?

[UmpJM]

cbiesecker,

That is correct.

It is my OPINION that the good folks who came up with the FED and NCAA interps had a fundamental misunderstanding of the OBR rule when they made their interps for FED & NCAA.

JM

[sdix00]

I learned this from REI.

This is the string theory.

Tie a string between two fielders. If the ball crosses the string, then hits the runner, the runner is not out. (As long as there is not another fielder with a chance to field the ball. )

NCAA and FED use the String Theory.

In OBR the rule is different.

The runner is almost always out when hit by a batted ball. The exception is when the ball passes within a "step and a reach" of a fielder and contacts the runner immediately behind him. And the runner is not out only when there is not another fielder in position to field the ball.

----

When I think of the difference, I try to avoid using the "through or by" because even though the term is used in FED and OBR (not NCAA), as JM said they mean different things. Instead I say "within a step and a reach" for OBR and "Passes" (the string) in FED/NCAA.

The other thread on a runner being hit with a batted ball reminded me that this difference is worth discussing. that and the fact that I was going through the Referee archives and found the one where they get this wrong.

[cbiesecker]

Thanks guys. Once again, I learned something. I'd much rather learn from my mistakes on this board than on the field, and picking up tips like "the string theory" is just icing on the cake.

[mstaylor]

I did not realize the NCAA still used the string theory. The problem is when the interps were made for FED, and I guess NCAA, at least a portion of OBR specialists insisted on the string theory for OBR, the most notable being Rick Roder. He has since backeed away from it.

Unfortunately FED doesn't move very fast, especially if the coaches aren't complaining, so I don't see it changing anytime soon.

[fullcount13]

Let me go on and apologize up front for being new to the sport of umpiring and possibly asking a dumb question, but why does the fact that the runner was standing ON the bag not make a difference in him being out? Is this due to the fact that the bases were loaded and he was forced to leave with the hit? If there had only been a runner on 2nd would the ruling still have been the same? Again, I apologize if this seems simple to some, but I have learned alot from this website and I appreciate all you seasoned veterans helpings folks like me out! ;)

[ukce1861]

Let me go on and apologize up front for being new to the sport of umpiring and possibly asking a dumb question, but why does the fact that the runner was standing ON the bag not make a difference in him being out? Is this due to the fact that the bases were loaded and he was forced to leave with the hit? If there had only been a runner on 2nd would the ruling still have been the same? Again, I apologize if this seems simple to some, but I have learned alot from this website and I appreciate all you seasoned veterans helpings folks like me out!

The only time a runner is protected from a batted ball when he's on the bag is on an IFF. Otherwise, if he gets hit with a batted ball - he's out.

[noumpere]

Let me go on and apologize up front for being new to the sport of umpiring and possibly asking a dumb question, but why does the fact that the runner was standing ON the bag not make a difference in him being out? Is this due to the fact that the bases were loaded and he was forced to leave with the hit? If there had only been a runner on 2nd would the ruling still have been the same? Again, I apologize if this seems simple to some, but I have learned alot from this website and I appreciate all you seasoned veterans helpings folks like me out!

The base is not a sanctuary dispite any myth to the contrary you might of heard.

[cookie]

UmpJM: NCAA - Live ball, play the bounce. (NCAA 8-5k)

Thanks for the NCAA code clarification. I wasn't sure about that one...