HBP ...lots of discussion

[mazzamouth]

I looked at that thing frame by frame and his back foot wound up at least partially behind the plate.It looked pretty intentional to me. I'm assuming it hit him because of his reaction, killing the ball and keeping him at the plate, and sending Cabrera back to second. I might even call it a strike to let everyone know that sort of monkey business won't be tolerated

you're going to say that Martinez moved his BACK FOOT into the pitch??? Please!!

dont worry him and Kevin think the same thing...

[mazzamouth]

[Thunderheads]

I looked at that thing frame by frame and his back foot wound up at least partially behind the plate.It looked pretty intentional to me. I'm assuming it hit him because of his reaction, killing the ball and keeping him at the plate, and sending Cabrera back to second. I might even call it a strike to let everyone know that sort of monkey business won't be tolerated

you're going to say that Martinez moved his BACK FOOT into the pitch??? Please!!

dont worry him and Kevin think the same thing...

I did notice that, lol, ...I'll have to talk to Kevin about that :)

[Mr Umpire]

Well, if the ball hits the dirt, I am sending him to 1B. It is pretty hard to read a bounce in that short of time and it being a breaking ball. He may have intentionally put his leg where he did. But, to intentionally read a bounce on a breaking pitch that quick, I don't know. I will probably be sending a batter to 1B every time on this one. Especially, since I can't look at it repeatedly though I'm still not sure if he did it intentionally or if it happened b/c he was trying to hold up his swing.

[Thunderheads]

Guys, ...

Tiger fan or not ....

There's no way that's intentional by Martinez, you can clearly see his back toe/foot slides out when his movement and weight come foreward trying to hold the swing ....

For those who used to play ball, ..think about trying to throw your BACK leg at an inside 78 mph breaking ball.....ya know?

[plateumpire29]

If it looks hokey, as this example does, more than likely its intentional. More than once I've kept batters at the plate for intentional movement into the pitch. I explained to one guy, who was an habitual offender, that, when he did that, he was forcing me to make a call. I told him that, if I let it go, the opposing coach would think either that he was being homered or that I had nothing between my legs. Neither is an option as far as I'm concerned.

[Thunderheads]

If it looks hokey, as this example does, more than likely its intentional. More than once I've kept batters at the plate for intentional movement into the pitch. I explained to one guy, who was an habitual offender, that, when he did that, he was forcing me to make a call. I told him that, if I let it go, the opposing coach would think either that he was being homered or that I had nothing between my legs. Neither is an option as far as I'm concerned.

You played baseball?

[plateumpire29]

Thunder, why the argument? To me it looks as though he deliberately kicked his foot out in an effort to get hit. I've seen lead legs and elbows put in the way of pitches. I've seen batters stand like statues and let themselves be hit by 45 mph roundhouse curve balls. In every incident, by their actions or inactions, as the case may be, the batter is attempting to gain an unfair advantage. Our job, as an umpire is to ensure that neither team nor individual is allowed to do that. And, oh by the way, I played in various leagues until I was 40.

[Thunderheads]

Thunder, why the argument? To me it looks as though he deliberately kicked his foot out in an effort to get hit. I've seen lead legs and elbows put in the way of pitches. I've seen batters stand like statues and let themselves be hit by 45 mph roundhouse curve balls. In every incident, by their actions or inactions, as the case may be, the batter is attempting to gain an unfair advantage. Our job, as an umpire is to ensure that neither team nor individual is allowed to do that. And, oh by the way, I played in various leagues until I was 40.

I'm not arguing, I just asked a question. Ok, fair enough, I understand your point. But if you played, you should know how difficult / practically impossible it would be to throw your back foot at a breaking ball

I'm just sayin' ...

Plus, at regular speed, your'e not going to catch that anyhow... imho

If you disagree, that's cool, no problem, ...we're just looking at it differently ....it's all good :cheers:

[BigUmp56]

There's no way in hell that any umpire on that field could tell that the pitch hit him, and even if it did, he may have caused it to hit him by sticking his foot in the way. There's either a call or a non-call, but sending him to first is not one of the choices. Very strange.

I loved the argument-solving three-run blast.

I think the real problem was that the PU blew the D3K and checkswing mechanic, and they had to go with HBP so it didn't look so bad. And if it was a HBP initially, where was the call of "time"?

Tim.

Well he didnt blow the checkswing mechanic BTW...that is what your suppose to do on a U3K

I agree that that's how you're supposed to start a D3K mechanic when you have a check swing, but I didn't see him finish the rest of the mechanic after Vanover signaled no swing. It looked to me like he sort of wandered up the first base line instead of completing the mechanic.

Tim.

[plateumpire29]

Right...at regular speed that is a tough call, At regular speed, I'd have to be convinced it was intentional to make that call and keep him in the box. Anything short of that I would go with the batter's reaction and go with HBP. The way he moved that back foot just looked very unnatural to me and therefore suspicious. Wasn't it Billy Martin who said if you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'? It's our job to catch them.

[BigUmp56]

I looked at that thing frame by frame and his back foot wound up at least partially behind the plate.It looked pretty intentional to me. I'm assuming it hit him because of his reaction, killing the ball and keeping him at the plate, and sending Cabrera back to second. I might even call it a strike to let everyone know that sort of monkey business won't be tolerated

you're going to say that Martinez moved his BACK FOOT into the pitch??? Please!!

Don't kill me on this, Jeff, but after watching it again a number of times, I'm convinced Martinez was trying to get hit. A batter's natural motion to hit a pitch (and Martinez started a swing) will never have their back foot moving toward the plate as they shift their weight. They turn on that back foot and "squish the bug", in one spot. Watch it again and see if you don't agree that his back foot moving toward the plate looked odd and intentional.

Tim.

[Umpete]

All I know is I lost 5 bucks on the play. I bet my wife Leyland would be gone after that one. I can't believe he stayed. He must have been in play-off behavior mode or something.

I think it was more like the umpires are in play-off behavior mode. If this was a regular season game, you would be 5 bucks to the good.

[mstaylor]

What I thought was funny was the announcers said both managers were in position to come out. I pictured them both out in front of the dugout waiting to see which one had to argue.

[zm1283]

You can't be sure, but it sure looks like the batter was trying to get hit on his back foot. I know "It looked weird" isn't a criteria for calling something, but who does that when they bat?

[Rich Ives]

Nobody's stupid enough to try to get hit in the foot.

[BigUmp56]

Nobody's stupid enough to try to get hit in the foot.

God, I hope not. But there are players that would try to slide their foot into a pitch. You're a coach, Rich, have you ever seen a professional hitter try to hit a pitch and have his back foot move out of the box like that?

Tim.

[plateumpire29]

Over the last several years, at nearly every level, its become fashionable for batters to either dive into, or allow themselves to be hit by close pitches. So much so, that it has become a point of emphasis in our state high school association. Why wouldn't it seep into the pro level? Just because something has become stylish doesn't make it legal.

[Thunderheads]

Over the last several years, at nearly every level, its become fashionable for batters to either dive into, or allow themselves to be hit by close pitches. So much so, that it has become a point of emphasis in our state high school association. Why wouldn't it seep into the pro level? Just because something has become stylish doesn't make it legal.

Everything you've said here is true ....except ..... the lower levels learn this from the pros

But this situation is not an intentional HBP ....watch it at real speed and put yourself behind the dish ... it's too fast to accomplish...and you'd never see it anyhow....

:2cents:

[Rich Ives]

Nobody's stupid enough to try to get hit in the foot.

God, I hope not. But there are players that would try to slide their foot into a pitch. You're a coach, Rich, have you ever seen a professional hitter try to hit a pitch and have his back foot move out of the box like that?

Tim.

Pros are smart enough to get hit in a fleshy spot.

I've seen all sorts of strange swings/dodges/ducks/whatever on pitches in their vicinity.

And nobody would slide their back foot into the path. Too hard to do. You need to track the pitch to do that and it just wouldn't work.

MLB pitches have a lot more movement and speed than you're used to seeing at the HS level. Less time and more movement required. Not likely.

Perhaps you need to revise your view of players. Not everything they do is an attempt to break a rule.

[Thunderheads]

Nobody's stupid enough to try to get hit in the foot.

God, I hope not. But there are players that would try to slide their foot into a pitch. You're a coach, Rich, have you ever seen a professional hitter try to hit a pitch and have his back foot move out of the box like that?

Tim.

Pros are smart enough to get hit in a fleshy spot.

I've seen all sorts of strange swings/dodges/ducks/whatever on pitches in their vicinity.

And nobody would slide their back foot into the path. Too hard to do. You need to track the pitch to do that and it just wouldn't work.

MLB pitches have a lot more movement and speed than you're used to seeing at the HS level. Less time and more movement required. Not likely.

Perhaps you need to revise your view of players. Not everything they do is an attempt to break a rule.

+1 :clap:

[Mr Umpire]

I don't see it as intentional either. If you watch his head, he never looks down to see where the ball is going after it passes the front of the plate. He is too worried about holding up his swing. It was ugly but I don't think he was able to even come close to making this intentional.

It is nothing more than a HBP. And, Leyland is only there to argue for the run. It has nothing to do with umpire protocol. He couldn't care less about that and may not have been told what he thinks he was told. Who knows about that. And, if any umpire told him that, then I have never seen another umpire come running in or making a HBP call from the field. He just knows a run was taken away and he is upset about that. Nothing more.

[plateumpire29]

Thunder, have to agree with you there. From the back, as the plate guy, it would be tough to see, and therefore, go with a HBP off the batter's and catcher's reaction. That's the only option because, see it or not , you've got to make a call. If the batter stands there and the catcher goes flying after the ball, then you can be pretty sure it didn't hit him and you let it play through. I've had instances where the batter got hit in the back foot, stood there and neither I nor my partner saw it. Then the batter would say "hey that hit me." I would tell him "sorry, neither of us saw it. You could have helped me out by hopping around a little." I've had the same thing happen on foul balls off of feet. I know when I caught one off the foot, I made sure the umpire saw me hop around a bit.

[Thunderheads]

Thunder, have to agree with you there. From the back, as the plate guy, it would be tough to see, and therefore, go with a HBP off the batter's and catcher's reaction. That's the only option because, see it or not , you've got to make a call. If the batter stands there and the catcher goes flying after the ball, then you can be pretty sure it didn't hit him and you let it play through. I've had instances where the batter got hit in the back foot, stood there and neither I nor my partner saw it. Then the batter would say "hey that hit me." I would tell him "sorry, neither of us saw it. You could have helped me out by hopping around a little." I've had the same thing happen on foul balls off of feet. I know when I caught one off the foot, I made sure the umpire saw me hop around a bit.

Great...

I understand that too ...or, the old, ball/foul ball of the fingers/butt of the bat thingy-do....I hate that too!

But, ...that's all I'm saying here ...

a) back foot intentional hit is WAY to hard to do

B) regular speed, ...it just looks like a hit by pitch (yes, slo-mo looks funny, but still not intentional)

c) Vanover couldn't see it anyhow ...

d) what a wierd sitch! :)

[1dumbquestion]

so after a reading this thread for the last few days I picked up a heavy bat, crowded the plate, took a hard swing and tried to check it... guess what, my back foot moved toward the other batters box just like in the stitch. It may look unnatural but I'm sure there was no thought or intention on the HBP. 1