Balk Situation - OBR rules 11u

[FVBump]

I plan on looking this one up tonight...but thought I would post here first.

Situation

R2, not sure on outs.

Pitcher balks, batter hits the ball, line drive to right field in the gap. Batter never leaves the box I guess because the balk was called. R2 never made it to 3rd.

What do you do? Don't we have a delayed dead ball? Runners didn't advance. Coaches obviously didn't know the rule as they seemed to be looking for us to determine the outcome of the play.

After a minute of time, PU places R2 on 3B and batter resumes count in the box.

Maybe this would be acceptable for 11u? , but how would it be handled in say leagues 16+ that play OBR rules.

[UmpJM]

Conan,

Pretty cut and dried really.

Under OBR, the balk is indeed a "delayed dead ball". If all runners, including the batter-runner advance safely one base in the ensuing action, the balk is disregarded. If not, the balk is enforced.

That's proper enforcement, regardless of the age of the players.

While you might think this would only occur with younger players, in my experience HS age players are equally susceptible.

I'm guessing this is because under FED rules, the balk is an immediate dead ball and there's no point in "playing it out". You get HS players playing in summer or fall leagues that use OBR as the foundation, and they're often not aware of this difference.

Good call by the PU (though it shouldn't have taken "...a minute of time...").

John

[UmpTTS43]

If your question is in regards to what to do when there is a live ball in a balk situation and noone does anything, I would simply say "Play it out" or "Live ball" loud enough for the players to hear it. Then let the chips fall where they may.

[JaxRolo]

If your question is in regards to what to do when there is a live ball in a balk situation and no one does anything, I would simply say "Play it out" or "Live ball" loud enough for the players to hear it. Then let the chips fall where they may.

I would disagree. Do not yell out anything. Just let it go and see. If no one moves call Time and enforce the Balk.

Good call by PU and it applies to young or older players.

[Mr Umpire]

I wouldn't yell anything either. But, "Time" will not be called until someone has control of the ball on the infield with no one advancing. Until then, there is always the chance they figure it out. So, the PU did correctly wait to see what happens. He can't kill it just b/c the players don't know what to do. There has to be a chance where no action is possible.

[FVBump]

Thanks for the replies gents. I was umpiring this game, and was the PU. I did call time after the ball was back in the infield, and awarded R2 3B and batter assumed the count. I was going through my game journal I keep and came across this particular situation. Wanted some clarification on how it was handled from others. Looks like I handled it well. It was discussed in our postgame, and my BU and I felt we handled it just fine.

@ John, I am sure this would happen with HS players quite frequently as FED specifies a dead ball. Then they go and play summer ball where OBR is used and just don't know that particular rule. Also, I brought this up at the swamp and was met by some disagreement by someone. But in his defense, maybe he didn't quite understand what I was saying.

Thanks again!

[UmpTTS43]

There is nothing wrong with letting the teams know that their inaction is the problem. However, you cannot kill the ball when it is live in the same situation.

[BigUmp56]

If your question is in regards to what to do when there is a live ball in a balk situation and no one does anything, I would simply say "Play it out" or "Live ball" loud enough for the players to hear it. Then let the chips fall where they may.

I would disagree. Do not yell out anything. Just let it go and see. If no one moves call Time and enforce the Balk.

Good call by PU and it applies to young or older players.

I agree with saying nothing. You prompt them to advance and you're going to be hearing about it from the defensive manager. In his mind you've just put a runner in scoring position (I know he would be there on the balk anyway, but he may not), and gave a BR a free pass to 1B. They need to be responsible to know what to do in a balk situation.

Tim.

[JaxRolo]

I wouldn't yell anything either. But, "Time" will not be called until someone has control of the ball on the infield with no one advancing. Until then, there is always the chance they figure it out. So, the PU did correctly wait to see what happens. He can't kill it just b/c the players don't know what to do. There has to be a chance where no action is possible.

Agree and that is pretty much what I meant. I was on my iPhone at the time of the reply and and sitting at the Publix parking lot.

[UmpTTS43]

When the ball is live as in this situation, a live batted ball, you cannot kill it until play has ceased, runners advancing or being put out or until by rule we can kill it. Players doing nothing does not meet this criteria. The ball is in play. There are plenty of times when we, as umpires, have to inform both the offense and defense of a situation ie, "Thats nothing" when a play happens that something could happen but doesnt, "No tag" when a fielder tags a runner with an empty glove, "No catch", IFF to name a few. Informing the players "Play it out" or "Live ball" is doing the same thing. No one is getting an advantage, you are providing info that is obviously needed to both sides.

[UmpJM]

I agree with UmpTT.

In similar situations I have said something along the lines of , "Gentlemen, the ball is still in play".

Of course, in the sitch being discussed, as soon as a runner is retired before reaching his advance base, you can go ahead and kill it.

JM

[JaxRolo]

When the ball is live as in this situation, a live batted ball, you cannot kill it until play has ceased, runners advancing or being put out or until by rule we can kill it. Players doing nothing does not meet this criteria. The ball is in play. There are plenty of times when we, as umpires, have to inform both the offense and defense of a situation ie, "Thats nothing" when a play happens that something could happen but doesnt, "No tag" when a fielder tags a runner with an empty glove, "No catch", IFF to name a few. Informing the players "Play it out" or "Live ball" is doing the same thing. No one is getting an advantage, you are providing info that is obviously needed to both sides.

I respect your opinion but "Play it out" or "Live ball" is not going to fly when I Umpire. If I hear my partner do it then we are going to have a talk.

The other situations which I bolded above are completely different. These situations are taught at Umpire camps and Clinics. I have attended several and not once I have heard an instructor say "Play it out" or "Live ball". Its kinda like saying "Fair ball" if you see and outfielder not go after a ball hit "Fair" down the line.

[mstaylor]

Announce the balk and watch the festivities. When the ball gets back in the infield, kill it and enforce it. Sounds you did it all correctly.

[Mr Umpire]

When the ball is live as in this situation, a live batted ball, you cannot kill it until play has ceased, runners advancing or being put out or until by rule we can kill it. Players doing nothing does not meet this criteria. The ball is in play. There are plenty of times when we, as umpires, have to inform both the offense and defense of a situation ie, "Thats nothing" when a play happens that something could happen but doesnt, "No tag" when a fielder tags a runner with an empty glove, "No catch", IFF to name a few. Informing the players "Play it out" or "Live ball" is doing the same thing. No one is getting an advantage, you are providing info that is obviously needed to both sides.

Telling them on a play that the call is "That's nothing" doesn't equate to "Live ball". For one, the first is a ruling on the play. The second is just telling the players to keep going. Not the same IMO. That goes for all the situations listed.

Do you do the same thing on an uncaught third strike and everyone is standing still? Or, do you simply say "No catch" with a safe signal and wait to see who does what? I signal and wait.

Also, IMO, they were told everything the ruling by calling a balk and it is up to them to know the rules and how they apply to the situation. The only time we don't is when awarding bases after something has happened and the ball is dead. But, I don't tell them anything until the ball is dead. Telling them it's live and the BR advances when he wouldn't have is giving an advantage b/c the defense would have only had the lead runner getting a base and still have the batter up to bat. But, b/c the umpire felt like informing the players, the offense has 2 runners on when they would only have 1 on. Doing this puts the umpire too much in the game IMO in a situation where it is none of his business.

I know, it is just my opinion.

[JaxRolo]

When the ball is live as in this situation, a live batted ball, you cannot kill it until play has ceased, runners advancing or being put out or until by rule we can kill it. Players doing nothing does not meet this criteria. The ball is in play. There are plenty of times when we, as umpires, have to inform both the offense and defense of a situation ie, "Thats nothing" when a play happens that something could happen but doesnt, "No tag" when a fielder tags a runner with an empty glove, "No catch", IFF to name a few. Informing the players "Play it out" or "Live ball" is doing the same thing. No one is getting an advantage, you are providing info that is obviously needed to both sides.

Telling them on a play that the call is "That's nothing" doesn't equate to "Live ball". For one, the first is a ruling on the play. The second is just telling the players to keep going. Not the same IMO. That goes for all the situations listed.

Do you do the same thing on an uncaught third strike and everyone is standing still? Or, do you simply say "No catch" with a safe signal and wait to see who does what? I signal and wait.

Also, IMO, they were told everything the ruling by calling a balk and it is up to them to know the rules and how they apply to the situation. The only time we don't is when awarding bases after something has happened and the ball is dead. But, I don't tell them anything until the ball is dead. Telling them it's live and the BR advances when he wouldn't have is giving an advantage b/c the defense would have only had the lead runner getting a base and still have the batter up to bat. But, b/c the umpire felt like informing the players, the offense has 2 runners on when they would only have 1 on. Doing this puts the umpire too much in the game IMO in a situation where it is none of his business.

I know, it is just my opinion.

My Opinion as well! :rolleyes:

[noumpere]

I know, it is just my opinion.

Me too but thats probably the kiss of death for this side of the argument lol.

[JaxRolo]

I know, it is just my opinion.

Me too but thats probably the kiss of death for this side of the argument lol.

I think we might be in the Majority on this one. Like I said before yelling out "Play it out" or "Live ball" is not taught at any school or camp that I know of.

[Ump29]

Why do you kill the play when the ball comes back into the infield?

[Mr Umpire]

Why do you kill the play when the ball comes back into the infield?

My reasoning is b/c no runners will usually attempt to run once the ball is on the infield. Obviously, they can but unless the ball is thrown away, they won't be going anywhere. I am not waiting until the pitcher has the ball and is about to step on the rubber to then move runners.

[noumpere]

Why do you kill the play when the ball comes back into the infield?

He's assuming that no runners are advancing and play is relaxed and both teams are by their actions telling the umpire they want the award and dont want to see the results of the play. So get it over with and get back to the game.

[mstaylor]

I agree, when the ball gets back in the infield and no one is trying to advance, as in the OP, then kill it. If runners are trying to advance then let play continue until somebody gets thrown out before their first base.

[Home of Shiner Beer]

Well...the batter/runner and baserunner non-action pretty much made this a play that the umpire must call time at the end of playing action.Award of the balk was the only course of action.I agree that the ruling should be made right after time was called...If time was not called...maybe the coaches would wake up before the cows come home...not likely.